Gore

[Red Pill]

In 2001, Borland, considered by some to be the creative genius of the band, left the group. Though, in a public statement, Durst said that he wished Borland well after his departure, he still managed to start a MySpace war with Borland when he began working with his new project, a band called Black Light Burns.

Without Borland, and with Durst now completely in control of the band's focus, their musical direction shifted. And that is the reason for lb fall in the recent years. They are cool N 2 gether now. Korn works without Head. But they are better with him.

[BewareTheWater]

Cool video. It's proof that Head would be a better front man for Korn, just like how Wes would be a better front man for Limp.

Whaaaat ? I love JD. If you really want to see Head as a front man, check out his solo stuff and Love And Death.

[BewareTheWater]

! No longer available

I fuckin' love Eric Andre lol

[Inkblades]

Cool video. It's proof that Head would be a better front man for Korn, just like how Wes would be a better front man for Limp.

Whaaaat ? I love JD. If you really want to see Head as a front man, check out his solo stuff and Love And Death.

I was being slightly facetious. Just a sneaky way of saying Chino will always be a better vocalist than JD.

[Red Pill]

As you see... It didn't work out so well!

[Inkblades]

S'all good. I'm used to my subtlety going over heads.

[Red Pill]

I dont think so! Anyway...I'm good!

[ANattyRat]

Why have a bunch of people joined a DEFTONES forum just to call people who prefer Deftones fanboys? What is going on??? I think it's time for news of a new album or something, things get stupid here when things have died down.

[O]

If you dont like something you're not a fan. Then someone defend himself with you're a fanboy... keep fighting on this dying forum ...

[Inkblades]

We're far from fanboys. Fans, sure, but we don't blindly love everything they do. Anyone on this board will tell you I've criticized many aspects of Deftones and Chino's other stuff. I think Koi is overrated, will be the first to tell you that SNW and Gore have very spotty production and find the Palms album to be borderline unlistenable. I'm not against anyone criticizing their work. That's partially what this board is for.

What I am VEHEMENTLY against is this notion that cringe-worthy bands like Korny, Limp Diczkit and Stinkin Park are or will ever be better than Deftones. That, good sir, is unequivocally and categorically false. Watch, these trololos will be telling us that Crazy Town is superior to Deftones next.

[O]

What I am VEHEMENTLY against is this notion that cringe-worthy bands like Korny, Limp Diczkit and Stinkin Park are or will ever be better than Deftones. That, good sir, is unequivocally and categorically false.

I like all the bands...cringe-worthy is drake and stuff as that...By logic we're on a deftones forum... Maybe it's a normal thing to say by you, on a Linkin Park forum, they say Linkin Park is better. On a Limp Bizkit forum, Limp Bizkit is better.. Korn forum - Korn is better...

[Inkblades]

You can like those bands. Listen to them all day if you want. And look, I'm not in these streets bumping them like that, but I do enjoy a song here and there. A.D.I.D.A.S. is a cool song, and Eat You Alive gets an A for effort because Durst actually tried on that song...drawing a blank on a good LP song. Maybe Session, because there's no vocals.

But just don't tell me those bands are better than Deftones. Sorry, I don't wanna hear it. Especially on a Deftones board. I'm sure other boards would say the same thing, but guess what? They would be wrong.

This isn't just me saying this, btw. This is the critical consensus. Deftones are much more critically respected than the rest of these bands.

Here's the bottom line. None of those bands...NONE...have made an album as good as White Pony or Around the Fur. And they never will. And that's not even getting into the rest of the Deftones albums.

[O]

You can like those bands. Listen to them all day if you want. And look, I'm not in these streets bumping them like that, but I do enjoy a song here and there. A.D.I.D.A.S. is a cool song, and Eat You Alive gets an A for effort because Durst actually tried on that song...drawing a blank on a good LP song. Maybe Session, because there's no vocals.

But just don't tell me those bands are better than Deftones. Sorry, I don't wanna hear it. Especially on a Deftones board. I'm sure other boards would say the same thing, but guess what? They would be wrong.

This isn't just me saying this, btw. This is the critical consensus. Deftones are much more critically respected than the rest of these bands.

Here's the bottom line. None of those bands...NONE...have made an album as good as White Pony or Around the Fur. And they never will. And that's not even getting into the rest of the Deftones albums.

I think they are all respected and all the bands have good and bad critics..by fans and shitty social media! Some has more fans, Some has sold more albums and a few reflect some of the pivotal moments within nu-metal/metal whatever. It's your opinion on a deftones forum! I see it as normal...

[Inkblades]

All of these bands have received good and bad criticism. Sure, as does any work of art. But Deftones have received more positive feedback, while the other bands haven't. Look at the actual Metacritic averages of all the albums these bands have put out since 2010:

Diamond Eyes - 78
Koi No Yokan - 86
Gore - 81

The Path of Totality - 58
The Paradigm Shift - 65
The Serenity of Suffering - 67

A Thousand Suns - 66
Living Things - 60
The Hunting Party - 65

Gold Cobra - 53

Deftones are more critically respected. The numbers don't lie.

[O]

What about the fans? Can you say since the 1st album? Album sales? I don't see you saying that stuff on a Deftones forum as anormal, but I can understand the other people and I respect them too.

[Inkblades]

Album sales are basically irrelevant to me, because I don't believe commercial success is indicative of musical talent. And obviously Korn, LB and LP all had more play from MTV back in the day than DT ever did. They were more commercially mainstream bands (possibly racism on the part of the industry, too, giving bands fronted by angry, depressed white boys more of a push than a band fronted by a talented Mexican kid). That being said, illthrowROCKS@U did post that DT albums have often had better first week sales on the Billboard charts than the others, especially lately. Why lately? This ties into what he's been saying, what I've been saying and what many outside of the board have been been saying. Here goes...

Deftones are more relevant than these other bands in 2017. Why? Because they transcended nu-metal. Shit, not only did they transcend the nu-metal tag, they did it BACK WHEN NU-METAL WAS IN ITS HEYDAY. You know, the 1998-1999-2000 MTV era.

Korn? Limp Bizkit? They haven't. They are still making nu-metal. I just heard Korn's new single on the radio and that shit was nu-metal as fuck. I actually started laughing at how nu-metal it was. Well, actually, I was laughing more because it was nu-metal 2.0 - nu-metal mixed with a shitty, bland pop veneer. Davis even had a lyric about "You are the disease"...like, this guy has been singing the same exact shit since the mid-90's.

Linkin Park, on the other hand, has tried to transcend nu-metal by making other types of music. They haven't succeeded, though, because the thing is they aren't that talented. So, they aren't making nu-metal anymore, but they are still making songs as bland as ever.

"Can I say since the first album?" Not sure what you mean there. Do you mean can I say that Deftones have always been more critically acclaimed than the others since Adrenaline? I dunno, because that is their most nu-metal album. That being said, I definitely saw the flashes that they could go way beyond nu-metal on songs like Fireal and Fist.

[O]

Album sales are basically irrelevant to me, because I don't believe commercial success is indicative of musical talent. And obviously Korn, LB and LP all had more play from MTV back in the day than DT ever did. They were more commercially mainstream bands (possibly racism on the part of the industry, too, giving bands fronted by angry, depressed white boys more of a push than a band fronted by a talented Mexican kid). That being said, illthrowROCKS@U did post that DT albums have often had better first week sales on the Billboard charts than the others, especially lately. Why lately? This ties into what he's been saying, what I've been saying and what many outside of the board have been been saying. Here goes...

Haha that shit had me laughing. Of course commercial sucess is indicative of musical talent too... " They were more commercially mainstream bands (possibly racism on the part of the industry, too, giving bands fronted by angry, depressed white boys more of a push than a band fronted by a talented Mexican Kid "

Weak justification...

Linkin Park, on the other hand, has tried to transcend nu-metal by making other types of music. They haven't succeeded, though, because the thing is they aren't that talented. So, they aren't making nu-metal anymore, but they are still making songs as bland as ever.

They are talented and more relevant than deftones... but you are on a deftones forum and it's your opinion... I see you, saying that stuff as normal...

[illthrowROCKS@U]

I am pretty much done with this conversation, but I'll add one more thing.

You're asking about critical reception since the beginning. This is harder to do an apples-to-apples comparison, because the same people don't always rate the same albums. So if I said that Adrenaline got an 8/10 from Drowned in Sound, and the Self Titled Korn debut got a D- from The Calgary Herald, it might not necessarily mean much. The best we can do is use what's called "meta-data." Any time you use that prefix, meta, you're basically talking about a conglomeration of other data to create "super data." You could call meta-data, essentially, data of data.

Thankfully, we have something like this. It's called Metacritic, and it's a website that combines and averages all critical reception, as well as user scores. So from this website we can reasonably determine which bands are more well-received by critics and fans alike. All albums prior to 2000 are not represented on the website. I also consider this a far better measure of "success" than album sales, as buying an album doesn't guarantee that you will like it. Have you ever purchased an album that you ended up thinking was bad after listening? Particularly before 2005, when the music industry took its biggest hit due to online downloading that it never recovered from, people bought albums without ever hearing them more frequently than they do now. So if something was popular, such as LB, LP, and Korn all were, it was purchased in hopes of it being good.

And, come to think of it, 2005 is about when Deftones started to take those other bands over on album sales/chart success too. This tells me that when people have a greater chance of hearing the albums beforehand, they prefer Deftones. It also tells me that Deftones has more "fans," considering in order to actually buy an album these days you have to really like a band or musician.

Turns out, fans and critics alike have always preferred Deftones.

Here's the data:

Deftones
White Pony - Critical Score 72, User Score 9.1
Deftones - Critical Score 74, User Score 8.5
Saturday Night Wrist - Critical Score 72, User Score 8.6
Diamond Eyes - Critical Score 78, User Score 8.9
Koi No Yokan - Critical Score 86, User Score 8.7
Gore - Critical Score 81, User Score 8.1

High Point: Critical Score 86, User Score 9.1
Low Point: Critical Score 72, User Score 8.1
Average: Critical Score 77.17, User Score 8.65

Limp Bizkit
Chocolate Starfish and the Hotdog Flavored Water - Critical Score 49, User Score 7.5
Results May Vary - Critical Score 33, User Score 4.1
Gold Cobra - Critical Score 53, User Score 6.2

High Point: Critical Score 53, User Score 7.5
Low Point: Critical Score 33, User Score 4.1
Average: Critical Score 45, User Score 5.93

Korn
Untouchables - Critical Score 80, User Score 8.5
Take A Look In The Mirror - Critical Score 49, User Score 8.3
See You On The Other Side - Critical Score 64, User Score 7.8
Untitled - Critical Score 64, User Score 7.4
Korn III - Critical Score 57, User Score 7.1
The Path of Totality - Critical Score 58, User Score 6.2
The Paradigm Shift - Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0
The Serenity of Suffering - Critical Score 67, User Score 7.9

High Point: Critical Score 80, User Score 8.5
Low Point: Critical Score 49, User Score 6.2
Average: Critical Score 63, User Score 7.65

Linkin Park
Reanimation - Critical Score 60, User Score 7.1
Meteora - Critical Score 62, User Score 8.6
Minutes to Midnight - Critical Score 56, User Score 6.6
A Thousand Suns - Critical Score 66, User Score 7.3
Living Things - Critical Score 60, User Score 7.8
Recharged - Critical Score 49, User Score 5.2
The Hunting Party - Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0

High Point: Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0
Low Point: Critical Score 49, User Score 5.2
Average: Critical Score 59.71, User Score 7.23


You'll notice that Deftones have the highest High Point, the highest Low Point, and the highest Average. You'll also notice that the Deftones ratings are trending upward, suggesting increasing critical and fan reception over time, while the other bands' best days are behind them. The other exception here is Linkin Park, which has The Hunting Party as a late-stage outlier. Take from this information what you will. Here are the sources:

http://www.metacritic.com/person/deftones
http://www.metacritic.com/person/limp-bizkit
http://www.metacritic.com/person/korn
http://www.metacritic.com/person/linkin-park

[O]

"Professional reviews" are a joke! With the bunch of amateur bloggers who style themselves journalists these days! It's better to actually to read the reviews of just looking at scores. Never trust/fool with anyone who will hide behind social media and talk, A relationship requires trust from both parties involved. Establish trust between you and your followers by becoming a resource. Once you've gained the trust of your followers, credibility follows suit. Example...
http://youtu.be/bfsooZS6v50

[illthrowROCKS@U]

I am pretty much done with this conversation, but I'll add one more thing.

You're asking about critical reception since the beginning. This is harder to do an apples-to-apples comparison, because the same people don't always rate the same albums. So if I said that Adrenaline got an 8/10 from Drowned in Sound, and the Self Titled Korn debut got a D- from The Calgary Herald, it might not necessarily mean much. The best we can do is use what's called "meta-data." Any time you use that prefix, meta, you're basically talking about a conglomeration of other data to create "super data." You could call meta-data, essentially, data of data.

Thankfully, we have something like this. It's called Metacritic, and it's a website that combines and averages all critical reception, as well as user scores. So from this website we can reasonably determine which bands are more well-received by critics and fans alike. All albums prior to 2000 are not represented on the website. I also consider this a far better measure of "success" than album sales, as buying an album doesn't guarantee that you will like it. Have you ever purchased an album that you ended up thinking was bad after listening? Particularly before 2005, when the music industry took its biggest hit due to online downloading that it never recovered from, people bought albums without ever hearing them more frequently than they do now. So if something was popular, such as LB, LP, and Korn all were, it was purchased in hopes of it being good.

And, come to think of it, 2005 is about when Deftones started to take those other bands over on album sales/chart success too. This tells me that when people have a greater chance of hearing the albums beforehand, they prefer Deftones. It also tells me that Deftones has more "fans," considering in order to actually buy an album these days you have to really like a band or musician.

Turns out, fans and critics alike have always preferred Deftones.

Here's the data:

Deftones
White Pony - Critical Score 72, User Score 9.1
Deftones - Critical Score 74, User Score 8.5
Saturday Night Wrist - Critical Score 72, User Score 8.6
Diamond Eyes - Critical Score 78, User Score 8.9
Koi No Yokan - Critical Score 86, User Score 8.7
Gore - Critical Score 81, User Score 8.1

High Point: Critical Score 86, User Score 9.1
Low Point: Critical Score 72, User Score 8.1
Average: Critical Score 77.17, User Score 8.65

Limp Bizkit
Chocolate Starfish and the Hotdog Flavored Water - Critical Score 49, User Score 7.5
Results May Vary - Critical Score 33, User Score 4.1
Gold Cobra - Critical Score 53, User Score 6.2

High Point: Critical Score 53, User Score 7.5
Low Point: Critical Score 33, User Score 4.1
Average: Critical Score 45, User Score 5.93

Korn
Untouchables - Critical Score 80, User Score 8.5
Take A Look In The Mirror - Critical Score 49, User Score 8.3
See You On The Other Side - Critical Score 64, User Score 7.8
Untitled - Critical Score 64, User Score 7.4
Korn III - Critical Score 57, User Score 7.1
The Path of Totality - Critical Score 58, User Score 6.2
The Paradigm Shift - Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0
The Serenity of Suffering - Critical Score 67, User Score 7.9

High Point: Critical Score 80, User Score 8.5
Low Point: Critical Score 49, User Score 6.2
Average: Critical Score 63, User Score 7.65

Linkin Park
Reanimation - Critical Score 60, User Score 7.1
Meteora - Critical Score 62, User Score 8.6
Minutes to Midnight - Critical Score 56, User Score 6.6
A Thousand Suns - Critical Score 66, User Score 7.3
Living Things - Critical Score 60, User Score 7.8
Recharged - Critical Score 49, User Score 5.2
The Hunting Party - Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0

High Point: Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0
Low Point: Critical Score 49, User Score 5.2
Average: Critical Score 59.71, User Score 7.23


You'll notice that Deftones have the highest High Point, the highest Low Point, and the highest Average. You'll also notice that the Deftones ratings are trending upward, suggesting increasing critical and fan reception over time, while the other bands' best days are behind them. The other exception here is Linkin Park, which has The Hunting Party as a late-stage outlier. Take from this information what you will. Here are the sources:

http://www.metacritic.com/person/deftones
http://www.metacritic.com/person/limp-bizkit
http://www.metacritic.com/person/korn
http://www.metacritic.com/person/linkin-park

I've quoted myself here, because my comment ended up being the last on the page, and I recognize that this means it has a lower chance of being seen. Regardless, my response is actually aimed at you, O.

I had assumed that the idea of "meta-data" would be misunderstood, and that's why I explained it in my comment. Metacritic does not give reviews. Metacritic compiles all professional reviews of an album and averages them into an aggregate score. What you've provided is a single person's review.

I'm actually a fan of Anthony Fantano, even though I find myself disagreeing with him a lot. He is very funny. But, since that's the person you've decided to bring up, let's see an apples to apples comparison, shall we?

So Fantano gave Gore a 4/10. What did he give to Limp Bizkit? Korn? Linkin Park? Hmmm....

Here's his 4/10 review of The Serenity of Suffering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTSgxz-aKg

Here's his HILARIOUS review of Gold Cobra.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45xt7d6L538

And he hasn't even fully reviewed any Linkin Park albums, but one of their albums is included in here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMZxona5az4


So not only is your comparison logically off, as meta-data by definition would include both low and high album reviews, the very person you actually use as your example of a low review for Deftones actually rated LB, Korn, and LP the same or lower.

You claim that professional reviews are a joke, but rely on album sales to determine what bands are "better." Really? Really....? REALLY?! Please...

And Metacritic also contains aggregate reviews from individuals too, not just Professional Critics. All of these skew towards Deftones as well. Or what about Sputnik Music? This is another website in which users rate bands and their albums. Which of these bands has hier reviews on this site? Deftones? Korn? LB? Or Linkin Park?

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/

What about besteveralbums? This is another website which allows users to review bands and albums and give them a score. Which of these 4 bands has a higher ranking on there?

https://www.besteveralbums.com/index.php

In fact... I challenge you to find a single music review website with aggregate scores from average users that rates Korn or Limp Bizkit higher than Deftones. And no, fan sites of those bands do not count. If Professional Reviews mean nothing to you.. why are these average people rating Deftones higher on every one of these aggregate websites? Occassionally, as in the case of besteveralbums, Linkin Park has a higher rating. This I can understand (although disagree with), simply because this band has continued their success. Korn and LB, in nearly every case, is rated lower than Deftones. Why is this? Hmmmm.....