Did they lie about Back to School?

[GreenMaggit]

Here's what I always heard. White Pony had been out for a while and the record company idiot 1) wanted to make singles and 2) didn't think there was anything radio friendly on the radio, therefore asked Deftones to rewrite Pink Maggit. KEep this in mind, White Pony apparently had been out already when this happened. The Back to School (Mini Maggit) EP was released in 2001. Let's quote the band.

Chino: "Honestly, I didn't want Back To School on the record. It was unfinished at the time, and I didn't want anything too hip-hop-oriented on the album."

CHINO: Back To School was a mistake. A calculated song, that has been built up with only one aim in mind: It should be single.
FRANK: It never belonged to the album. Our record company recieved White Pony without that song.
VISIONS: And why was it released afterwards?
CHINO: Because I was an idiot. I wanted to prove 'em some. Months later, after White Pony was released, they wanted us to do a new version of Pink Maggit, They said, we lost our heavyness, and there were no more singles on the album. First, I wanted to stick this idea up my ass, but then I thought, I'm gonna show those fuckers how easy it is to create a hit-single. And so I rapped a hip hop part on that song, we shortened it and half an hour later, the hit-single was ready to roll on. FRANK: They engaged this Pop-director, who worked with Britney Spears before, it really went off shitty, due to that. High-school, glamour, all this shit.

Okay, I remember having seen the old track listing (with alternate song names) from White Pony when it was leaked on Napster in 2000, way before the album's release. It had both Back to School and Pink Maggit not only on the cover, but also in the sound files. Back to School was present.

The band only initially finished 12 tracks, and then finished Back to School over the summer making that 13 finished tracks for the White Pony sessions. If they had any leftover material, the band would have to go and finish it in the studio if they ever planned on releasing it. There's nothing really in the can right now. There's preliminary Team Sleep stuff being worked on and there's talk about a remix album. The only other things they did recently in the studio was work on some acoustic renditions of White Pony songs. Change acoustic was the only one they finished, and it was pretty much following the original version of the song. They started working on acoustic renditions of Digital Bath, Boy's Republic, and Knife Prty but didn't complete these tracks yet. These tracks were much more in the way of RADICAL REWORKINGS of them. There is an unfinished version of the Boy's Republic acoustic out there from those sessions, it remains unmixed, unfinished, and without vocals, and overdubs and whatever else the band needed to do to that song as well as Digital Bath and Knife Prty acoustic. Someone snuck a disc with that and the other unfinished tracks out of the studio and it was leaked by that way. Knife Prty and Digital Bath, did not get leaked however.

Finished over the summer? No, don't think so. White Pony leaked in either March or April 2000, but definitely noit later than that. With Back to School on it. Again, the story that is always told is that Back to School was written after White Pony, not during it.

. The pre-mix version of Back To School that was floating around in Napster in March 2000 is a lot different than the final release that appeared on the single/enhanced album. In the original version the sound is a lot more compatible to the rest of the album, the drums sound the same (the album version has a higher dynamic range, what makes it sound more "fat") Also, the beginning has a little static in background (probably due to the "unfinished" status) Plus, in the album version, Chino starts his first verse at 0:22, in the original version he starts at 0:32, because one pattern seems to have been edited. Plus, in the album version, there has been different background vocals added at the end of the song. Plus, the vocals in the album version are a lot louder and more "sharp" than in the original mix

This is all a bit confusing. What is your take on this?

[from_musings]

the story that is always told is that Back to School was written after White Pony, not during it.

well that's bs... "back to school" was definitely on the leak in april 2000. i don't remember the exact name of it back then,but it was the last track on the leak...think it was named mini maggot or something. (several of the tracks had different names than the record release, like korea was named "white pony" and rx queen was "ice skates" etc.) the single version, later added to wp, was just a re-recorded version of the leak version, slightly different in tempo and new recorded vocals by chino but that was about it.again, it was not written after wp, just re-recorded k?

[GreenMaggit]

Change used to be called Flint Eastwood and Passenger used to be called Timbaland, Webster was the working title for The Boy's Republic. As far as the actual White Pony leak is concerned: The opening title was called Feiticeira, but I remember it not being what ended up being called Feiticeria on White Pony. That song was actually called New Murderer on the leak. Iceskates became RX Queen. White pony became Korea. New Murderer became Feiticeira. Knife Party at the Niko or Knife Party at Niko's (don't remember) became Knife Prty. Nightrider became Digital Bath. Pink Maggot became Pink Maggit. And last came Back To School, it was not the opener. This is the BTS version that appeared on the leak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aTX2oCVwrw

Found more form Chino's mouth:

We put ourselves in a bit of a problematic position with White Pony. We made that record with absolutely no interference from our label, Maverick. They didn't hear anything until it was done, and we gave it to them. And they were pleased with it, and released it as it was. But in their minds, they wanted to shoot us into the stratosphere. We were told that we were primed to be there, but they just needed that one song to do it. So they said to us, "Why don't you take this song from off the record," which was 'Pink Maggit', "and use the chorus but rewrite it into a nu metal song." At least, that's pretty much what they said.

We naturally resisted them. The record was out, and the critics liked it, and we were getting great reviews because it was something left of centre. But the label kept on asking. They offered us a million dollars to make this video with Paul Hunter, who'd made videos for Eminem, and this and that and whatever. And we looked around and saw Limp Bizkit and Papa Roach selling millions and millions of records, and at that point we'd not sold a million records. So, we decided that we had nothing to lose. The record was already out, we had the songs we wanted, so we wrote what became 'Back To School' in literally an hour. It was super fast, and I was trying to show how easy it was to write a formulaic, simple rap rock song, that was like all those other bands.

But when all's said and done, we took a shot at it, and did it work? Maybe. But the original album still exists as we wanted it to, and the people who are into our group, they know that.

That simply is a lie. And I'm not sure why they're so ashamed of BTS that they keep bullshitting people about it.

[rainnyx4]

I think probably what has happened is that Chino's telling of the story is the only one we have and he was probably high as fuck at the time both of the recording and the telling of the story. So, he probably doesn't remember it quite correctly.

What I would assume happened:

Band is recording/has finished recording WP sans Back 2 School. Record company thinks that there aren't enough viable singles and tells them to rework Pink Maggit. Band throws a hissy fit (rightfully so) but decides to record it to show the world how easy it is to make a "hit." Album gets released without it regardless. Band still feels pressure from the label for more singles. Either the band decides, "Hey, why not increase the sales and thus make us more money?" or "Fine. We'll acquiesce and show you just how easy it is to make a hit." New single and subsequent new version of album is then released. Chino gets high as fuck for a few years and tells the story wrong in an interview.

Either that, or yeah he's lying and wants to cover his artistic credibility.

[Vesanic]

This thread is quite a shock. I mean I had the guy telling me the same story to my face a couple years back lol.

[The Cyndicate]

I still have a copy of this from when I got it and burned it.
It is in the leak for sure.

I was kinda taken sideways by it not being on the album, because it was clearly a single, but then they came out with the other version that had it on the disc.

But it was, for a fact, in that leak.

[Inkblades]

Lol yeah, they are definitely stretching the truth on this one, but I think it's justifiable because fuck Maverick. As big as White Pony was for them, I think it could have been even bigger without Maverick's idiotic mismanagement.

[The Cyndicate]

Lol yeah, they are definitely stretching the truth on this one, but I think it's justifiable because fuck Maverick. As big as White Pony was for them, I think it could have been even bigger without Maverick's idiotic mismanagement.

Well,... Madonna.

[digital bath]

BTS is a great song (IMP), even if Chino and the rest of the band hate this song. It was the song which brought them a lot of new fans, including me.
I was a big fan of Korn, Slipknot, Limp Bizkit and yeah Papa Roach was also pretty good, and there were a lot of other new metal one hit wonders at the time which I enjoyed a lot too. I saw BQAD and My own summer in TV sometimes, but at the time they were just "ok" songs to me, nothing special. But then I saw BTS and it was ass kicking, it blew my mind! (okay I was a teeny back then... )

I remember about 5 years ago when they played in Zürich, it was on a wednesday and the concert hall was "only" about half full, but they were all deftones fans, allmost everyone got a shirt of them on, and everyone was singing along to every song. As they started to play the intro of BTS, the crowd was flipping out!
And like at the end of the videoclip, the crowd was singing the chorus, and we gave more applause like before. It was the highlight from that show.
So I believe that a lot of the fans love this song, especially from the "00's new metal generation" because it was the first song they heard from deftones.

Back to topic: maybe it was a PR gag. They recorded BTS before with the other songs, but didn't released it on the album yet. They wanted to show that they are a unique band with unique music, and not one of those new matel bands like every other, but they also wanted to prove that they can make a new metal hit single.

[GreenMaggit]

One more song title I forgot to mention was how Chino said Elite's working title was CIYF, which stands for "came in your face", very charming! But it was already called Elite on the WP leak.

I still have a copy of this from when I got it and burned it.
It is in the leak for sure.

I was kinda taken sideways by it not being on the album, because it was clearly a single, but then they came out with the other version that had it on the disc.

But it was, for a fact, in that leak.

Yes, it absolutely was on. Didn't BTS come on after Pink Maggit on the WP leak as the closing track? Am I remembering correctly?

Makes you wonder if they were very annoyed with the song and really did intend to keep it off the album or if it simply was a PR stunt after all, which was not only fueled by Maverick. I agree that the record company was ungrateful and pretentious and had no right to tell the band what to do, but I find it disappointing that Deftones tell 5 variants of this story, with none of them being true. You can own your shit up and stand behind your music. It not only made them money and exposed them to new fans, but it is their own work after all, nothing to be ashamed of. I absolutely hate nu metal, but I loved BTS when it came out, too.

[cvthedrv]

im very corious about the original titles of the white pony songs, any idea of the other songs titles? rx queen, street carp, teenager or korea ( wasn't this just white pony?)

[digital bath]

im very corious about the original titles of the white pony songs, any idea of the other songs titles? rx queen, street carp, teenager or korea ( wasn't this just white pony?)

There is some footage of a backstage interview (or whatever you can call it) in which Chino is high as shit and is telling something about "did you ever heard from a song title called Korea? There is no song out there called Korea"
So he decided to call the song Korea.
And I heard that teenager was a originally a team sleep song

BTW greenmaggit already named some of the original song titles from the WP leak a few posts before

[GreenMaggit]

im very corious about the original titles of the white pony songs, any idea of the other songs titles? rx queen, street carp, teenager or korea ( wasn't this just white pony?)

I wrote the early song titles in an above post. Teenager was always called just that and the user digital bath is right, it was meant to be a Team Sleep song all along. They recorded two songs which Chino originally wanted to use for Team Sleep, but we never knew what the second one actually was. RX Queen was called ice skates and Korea was called White Pony. Since Feiticeria was called New Murderer on the leak, but another song titled Feiticeira was also on that album, Street Carp seems to be the only one left. So maybe Street Carp used to be called Feiticeira. Unlike me, The Cyndicate still has the original leaked files, so maybe they could help out here.

[The Cyndicate]

im very corious about the original titles of the white pony songs, any idea of the other songs titles? rx queen, street carp, teenager or korea ( wasn't this just white pony?)

I wrote the early song titles in an above post. Teenager was always called just that and the user digital bath is right, it was meant to be a Team Sleep song all along. They recorded two songs which Chino originally wanted to use for Team Sleep, but we never knew what the second one actually was. RX Queen was called ice skates and Korea was called White Pony. Since Feiticeria was called New Murderer on the leak, but another song titled Feiticeira was also on that album, Street Carp seems to be the only one left. So maybe Street Carp used to be called Feiticeira. Unlike me, The Cyndicate still has the original leaked files, so maybe they could help out here.

Maybe I should pull it out of the box and rip it?
I figured everyone still had it.

Yes, mini was at the end.

[The Cyndicate]

I also think Boys Republic was on it, but I don't remember when I got it. I just know it was long before the album came out. We used to cover it, before the album dropped.

[GreenMaggit]

Everyone would be pleased, I think!

[jaypayton]

in chinos defense he was on massive drugs back then so if his memory is fucked thats understandable.....but most likely hes lying just to cover his ass and pretend they were forced into making a rap metal song...same way al jourgensen from ministry lies about how the record label forced him to do a synth pop album when he was doing synth pop before he even signed to a label

[Hidalgo]

Chino's memory has always been swiss cheese at best. constantly not remembering facts about the band correctly. i think he just goes on with his life & never thinks about band details until he's asked. he can't remember song lyrics order sometimes. a lot of us would smoke him in deftones trivia, easily

the man makes some killer music though. my fav frontman ever by far

[from_musings]

chino has said many things over the years,so in some cases, he probably confused facts and forgot how things really were. but granted there's been cases of adjustments of truth and straight up lies. if this is a case of forgetfulness or a lie,i guess that's up to everyone to judge, but chino has guaranteed lied in interviews before.

anyway, i think they should've kept "new murderer" as title on the record, i like it for some reason

[Sunbath]

What difference does it make if it was made during original white pony sessions and just finished later on due to label pressure? Even then it was a song that they decided to scrape off the album. FACT is that it wasn't on the first version of the album.