FUCK.
Link por favor.
good, those things are nasty as fuck
go to indonesia, thats all they smoke there, nonstop, everyday, everywhere
Quote from: nonesuch on Sep 08, 2009, 06:48 AM
good, those things are nasty as fuck
go to indonesia, thats all they smoke there, nonstop, everyday, everywhere
Omw.
That sucks, they smell nice. Like Christmas.
But remember kids. You're free ::)
Yes, it's okay that this is banned because we live in a free country and that is good.
Haha, so dramatic...
Heres the link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31305225/ns/politics-capitol_hill/
-Smokers, particularly the younger crowd, will find they can no longer buy cigarettes sweetened by candy flavors or any herb or spices such as strawberry, grape, orange, clove, cinnamon or vanilla. Cigarettes advertised as "light" or "mild," giving the impression that they aren't as harmful to health, will no longer be found on store shelves.
Quote from: penguin in the desert on Sep 08, 2009, 11:32 AM
Haha, so dramatic...
Oh come on. Fuck you. This is a blatant violation of my rights.
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 12:00 PM
Quote from: penguin in the desert on Sep 08, 2009, 11:32 AM
Haha, so dramatic...
This is a blatant violation of my rights.
Oh, buhu. It's not like it's a smoking ban.
Quote from: DefCubus on Sep 08, 2009, 11:38 AM
Heres the link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31305225/ns/politics-capitol_hill/
-Smokers, particularly the younger crowd, will find they can no longer buy cigarettes sweetened by candy flavors or any herb or spices such as strawberry, grape, orange, clove, cinnamon or vanilla. Cigarettes advertised as "light" or "mild," giving the impression that they aren't as harmful to health, will no longer be found on store shelves.
I can't see a problem with this. It's more a problem to call cigarettes "light" and "mild" when they do the same damage as regular cigs.
But we HAVE a smoking ban, dipshit.
And it is a fucking violation of rights.
It's a ban on THOSE kind of cigs, not regular cigs. Is it illegal to smoke in the US? No.
Funny how you're unable to construct a sentence without the need to be a douche.
Well cities are slowly banning smoking. In Los Angeles alone, you can't smoke in Burbank and Santa Monica.
Chicago is pretty much smoke free nowadays too
Quote from: penguin in the desert on Sep 08, 2009, 12:47 PM
It's a ban on THOSE kind of cigs, not regular cigs. Is it illegal to smoke in the US? No.
Funny how you're unable to construct a sentence without the need to be a douche.
It's not illegal to smoke in the US, but it is obviously being phased out. I have heard of some cities being almost entirely smoke free.
I've been hassled by store managers and cops before for not complying with the "15 feet away from door LOL" law. Like I am supposed to be 15 feet from every fucking door in the city. Smoking in the middle of the road is pretty dangerous IMO.
You can't even smoke at bus stops anymore. Once a bus driver didn't let me on the fucking bus for seeing me put out a cigarette as she pulled up.
And I can construct any sentence without being a douche, just not for you your highness.
Hard knock life.
So you think it's okay for a portion of the public to be condemned because they do something stupid but enjoy?
Albuquerque is also smoke free except for casinos and golf courses. Hmmmmm wonder how that happened? I'm sure it was all about public health though.
Look, it is a big deal. This is the government, in a supposed free society, telling the citizens that they can't do something that only causes harm to themselves. Its total bull shit. This is people forcing their life style beliefs on other people. That is wrong. Its sad to me that people are so conditioned to it that they don't even see the problem with it.
But imagine this. A new right wing Christian movement sweeps the U.S. and suddenly the large majority of politicians are born again. Now, there is a ban of pre marital sex in the U.S. They spin it by saying that they are trying to control the spread of STDs. But we all really know its because Jesus told them to. If it was something like this, THEN you would be mad about government control. But since you don't give a shit about the subject because it doesn't effect you, you're apathetic to the principal. Which is bull shit. Because the government taking more and more of your rights , privileges , and freedoms just to satisfy some BS agenda is not ok.
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 03:04 PM
So you think it's okay for a portion of the public to be condemned because they do something stupid but enjoy?
yes if it would be dangerous to others.
no idea why some of you make this a "freedom" topic, considering that you probablly arent free when you choose to smoke (because youre addicted to it and because there is a social pressure on you).
smoking should be allowed to adults that dont bother others with it. because the government has has to protect its people, it has the duty to inform about the dangers of smoking.
Thank you.
As a smoker, you have no idea how much this bullshit pisses me off. As an American, you have no idea how much this bullshit pisses me off.
Quote from: Nailec on Sep 08, 2009, 03:53 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 03:04 PM
So you think it's okay for a portion of the public to be condemned because they do something stupid but enjoy?
yes if it would be dangerous to others.
So you think I shouldn't be allowed to own a gun as well, right?
Just because I'm a smoker doesn't mean an idiot. It's not like I go around blowing smoke in people's faces.
At bus stops, if there are people there, I don't smoke in the little vestibule. I go out of the way. If the wind is blowing the smoke toward people, I move. If someone complains, I'll move or maybe even put it out. I understand it's a health hazard and it bothers people.
Before the smoking ban, the only indoor place you were allowed to smoke in that I wouldn't feel bad smoking in, was certain coffee shops. I wouldn't smoke in restaurants or venues.
This is ridiculous though. I now get hassled for smoking OUTSIDE. I consider myself a considerate smoker, but this is fucking insanity.
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:02 PM
Thank you.
As a smoker, you have no idea how much this bullshit pisses me off. As an American, you have no idea how much this bullshit pisses me off.
Quote from: Nailec on Sep 08, 2009, 03:53 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 03:04 PM
So you think it's okay for a portion of the public to be condemned because they do something stupid but enjoy?
yes if it would be dangerous to others.
So you think I shouldn't be allowed to own a gun as well, right?
No, you shouldn't. Unless it's a part of your worklife, there's no reason for anyone to own a gun.
How about a little thing called the constitution?
gb2 being foreign
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:02 PM
Thank you.
As a smoker, you have no idea how much this bullshit pisses me off. As an American, you have no idea how much this bullshit pisses me off.
Quote from: Nailec on Sep 08, 2009, 03:53 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 03:04 PM
So you think it's okay for a portion of the public to be condemned because they do something stupid but enjoy?
yes if it would be dangerous to others.
So you think I shouldn't be allowed to own a gun as well, right?
Just because I'm a smoker doesn't mean an idiot. It's not like I go around blowing smoke in people's faces.
At bus stops, if there are people there, I don't smoke in the little vestibule. I go out of the way. If the wind is blowing the smoke toward people, I move. If someone complains, I'll move or maybe even put it out. I understand it's a health hazard and it bothers people.
Before the smoking ban, the only indoor place you were allowed to smoke in that I wouldn't feel bad smoking in, was certain coffee shops. I wouldn't smoke in restaurants or venues.
This is ridiculous though. I now get hassled for smoking OUTSIDE. I consider myself a considerate smoker, but this is fucking insanity.
1.) posessing a gun is a total different topic as it requires a decision before you do harm with it. harming people through smoking is passive. but as long as we dont live in communism where everyone is free and respects other beings, its probablly the best to forbid gun posession.
2.) i agree its ridiculous to ban outside smoking. i dont hav scientific research here but i dont think it does any harm at all. plus: everyone that sees he is standing next to a smoker is free to step away from him. the interests of a smoker arent of less value than these of a non-smoker.
just inside a building you have no chance to escape the smoke
Quote from: Jerry_Curls on Sep 08, 2009, 01:08 PM
In Los Angeles alone, you can't smoke in Burbank and Santa Monica.
Outside also?
Personally I think smoking is disgusting. But I have no problem with people smoking outside....as long as it's not indoors I'm cool. But cloves do smell (and taste) pretty.
Quote from: Nailec on Sep 08, 2009, 04:13 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:02 PM
Thank you.
As a smoker, you have no idea how much this bullshit pisses me off. As an American, you have no idea how much this bullshit pisses me off.
Quote from: Nailec on Sep 08, 2009, 03:53 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 03:04 PM
So you think it's okay for a portion of the public to be condemned because they do something stupid but enjoy?
yes if it would be dangerous to others.
So you think I shouldn't be allowed to own a gun as well, right?
Just because I'm a smoker doesn't mean an idiot. It's not like I go around blowing smoke in people's faces.
At bus stops, if there are people there, I don't smoke in the little vestibule. I go out of the way. If the wind is blowing the smoke toward people, I move. If someone complains, I'll move or maybe even put it out. I understand it's a health hazard and it bothers people.
Before the smoking ban, the only indoor place you were allowed to smoke in that I wouldn't feel bad smoking in, was certain coffee shops. I wouldn't smoke in restaurants or venues.
This is ridiculous though. I now get hassled for smoking OUTSIDE. I consider myself a considerate smoker, but this is fucking insanity.
1.) posessing a gun is a total different topic as it requires a decision before you do harm with it.
That doesn't change the fact that they are dangerous. My point still stands.
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:13 PM
How about a little thing called the constitution?
gb2 being foreign
omfg, I would wipe my ass with the constitution if I could.
it's not that I don't agree with most of what it says, but the way you americans so blindly refer to it disgusts me just as much as any religious nut refers to the bible.
you think you can just ignore all other aspect of gun laws and its effects only because according to the constitution you should be able to arm yourself?
i fucking hate cigarettes. god bless america
i dont understand why they dont just let us kill ourselves.. seriously. does the government need to be our big mommies and daddies. its a joke already. if you didnt know that cigarettes are bad for you then your retarded. people know they are bad. they make the choice to smoke them
i understand this is a ban on flavored cigs. but cmon give me a break. there arent little kids out there who think that if a cigarrette is flavored it must be healthy
this just makes me feel like we are even further away from legalization of cannabis than i thought
Quote from: Jacob on Sep 08, 2009, 05:14 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:13 PM
How about a little thing called the constitution?
gb2 being foreign
omfg, I would wipe my ass with the constitution if I could.
it's not that I don't agree with most of what it says, but the way you americans so blindly refer to it disgusts me just as much as any religious nut refers to the bible.
you think you can just ignore all other aspect of gun laws and its effects only because according to the constitution you should be able to arm yourself?
people forget that the constitution was made over 200 years ago. so some of the things written then. may not apply in today's society
however i feel if they took guns away from people. it would be much easier for thieves to rob people with less fear of there being a gun in the house. thats just me.
if i had it my way. there would be no guns at all. but realistically, they cant take them away from people now.
Death to america
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o292/red98blue/15.jpg)
Quote from: shine down unshy on Sep 08, 2009, 05:42 PM
Death to america
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o292/red98blue/15.jpg)
gtfo
Quote from: Fireal1222 on Sep 08, 2009, 05:21 PM
Quote from: Jacob on Sep 08, 2009, 05:14 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:13 PM
How about a little thing called the constitution?
gb2 being foreign
omfg, I would wipe my ass with the constitution if I could.
it's not that I don't agree with most of what it says, but the way you americans so blindly refer to it disgusts me just as much as any religious nut refers to the bible.
you think you can just ignore all other aspect of gun laws and its effects only because according to the constitution you should be able to arm yourself?
people forget that the constitution was made over 200 years ago. so some of the things written then. may not apply in today's society
however i feel if they took guns away from people. it would be much easier for thieves to rob people with less fear of there being a gun in the house. thats just me.
if i had it my way. there would be no guns at all. but realistically, they cant take them away from people now.
gun posession also wants to ensure that there is probablly less murderer. does it work? hell no.
also it confronts my understandig of self defence to threaten a thiev with death.
anyways. most people lack responsibility to be able to posess again.
every time this debate is fought, lobbyists cry for "freedom" as if they cared about the people. at the same time they accuse the government to opress people. so ridiculous that it hurts. yet, so evident.
Quote from: Jacob on Sep 08, 2009, 05:14 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:13 PM
How about a little thing called the constitution?
gb2 being foreign
omfg, I would wipe my ass with the constitution if I could.
it's not that I don't agree with most of what it says, but the way you americans so blindly refer to it disgusts me just as much as any religious nut refers to the bible.
you think you can just ignore all other aspect of gun laws and its effects only because according to the constitution you should be able to arm yourself?
agreed. although i dont wanna sound arrogant with this. its just another socialization.
Quote from: Jacob on Sep 08, 2009, 05:14 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:13 PM
How about a little thing called the constitution?
gb2 being foreign
omfg, I would wipe my ass with the constitution if I could.
it's not that I don't agree with most of what it says, but the way you americans so blindly refer to it disgusts me just as much as any religious nut refers to the bible.
you think you can just ignore all other aspect of gun laws and its effects only because according to the constitution you should be able to arm yourself?
In this instance, I was joking.
:/
Quote from: Jacob on Sep 08, 2009, 05:14 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:13 PM
How about a little thing called the constitution?
gb2 being foreign
omfg, I would wipe my ass with the constitution if I could.
it's not that I don't agree with most of what it says, but the way you americans so blindly refer to it disgusts me just as much as any religious nut refers to the bible.
you think you can just ignore all other aspect of gun laws and its effects only because according to the constitution you should be able to arm yourself?
Bro, I don't think you have any idea how ignorant you sound. The U.S. Constitution was-is one of the most significant documents ever in the history of the world. The U.S. revolution was so much more than a revolution for the colonies. It was a world wide statement of a thirst for freedom and democracy. That document and the history around it has greatly influenced and changed history all over the world.
Also, that last part you threw in there. I guess you don't understand law very well. Because all laws in America come from the constitution. So you can't have any gun laws without the constitution. Even if they are local. Because the constitution is the supreme law of the land. Meaning that even if some state wants to have their own law, if it contradicts the constitution, it is not a valid law. And the 2nd amendment was put into the bill of rights. Rights that all Americans are at least guaranteed. So until the bill of rights is amended, gun bans are highly illegal and gun laws are highly suspicious. Just because the government does it, doesn't mean its legal. The supreme court cant bring cases to themselves. So citizens have to actually give a shit that their government is walking all over them and they have to realize there IS something they can do in order to get these kinds of cases to the courts. Not just shrug off all these violations.
great statement couldnt have said it better myself...
Amen
QuoteBro, I don't think you have any idea how ignorant you sound. The U.S. Constitution was-is one of the most significant documents ever in the history of the world. The U.S. revolution was so much more than a revolution for the colonies. It was a world wide statement of a thirst for freedom and democracy. That document and the history around it has greatly influenced and changed history all over the world.
i doubt jacob intended to offense the historical relevance of the constitution.
what i understand and what i support is: perhaps from time to time this holy cow, that is the constitution, should be butchered. i mean, considering how old it is.
btw another question out of curiosity. i have the feeling, youre an expert on this.
how does the constitution relate to other law texts? or such as the un charta or the declaration of human rights? are there conflicts between them?
Quote from: Variable on Sep 08, 2009, 07:10 PM
Bro, I don't think you have any idea how ignorant you sound. The U.S. Constitution was-is one of the most significant documents ever in the history of the world. The U.S. revolution was so much more than a revolution for the colonies. It was a world wide statement of a thirst for freedom and democracy. That document and the history around it has greatly influenced and changed history all over the world.
did I ever say otherwise? I know it's an important document historically (although you make it sound like America invented freedom and democracy, which is just rubbish). but the document is old and times have changed.
Quote from: Variable on Sep 08, 2009, 07:10 PMAlso, that last part you threw in there. I guess you don't understand law very well. Because all laws in America come from the constitution. So you can't have any gun laws without the constitution. Even if they are local. Because the constitution is the supreme law of the land. Meaning that even if some state wants to have their own law, if it contradicts the constitution, it is not a valid law. And the 2nd amendment was put into the bill of rights. Rights that all Americans are at least guaranteed. So until the bill of rights is amended, gun bans are highly illegal and gun laws are highly suspicious. Just because the government does it, doesn't mean its legal. The supreme court cant bring cases to themselves. So citizens have to actually give a shit that their government is walking all over them and they have to realize there IS something they can do in order to get these kinds of cases to the courts. Not just shrug off all these violations.
wow, talk about going off in the entirely wrong direction. I think you misinterpreted my words there a bit, mate. I wasn't talking about what the current laws are and why they're there. I only meant that I don't understand how you can justify a law saying you should be allowed to own guns only because it says so in the constitution, and totally ignoring
why you should be allowed. but seeing as how he was joking, which I should have understood, it really doesn't matter.
and for the record, I'm well aware of how laws work.
I really wasn't trying to be insulting with that. I think a lot of stuff in this topic has just come out wrong all over the place.
And believe me. I fully understand that freedom and democracy was not born in America. Just this happened to be the grounds where the world wide revolution really gained its momentum.
And the constitution was written in a way that was supposed to be timeless. I really don't see how its outdated. You can amend anything that you need to.
Quote from: Nailec on Sep 08, 2009, 07:45 PM
QuoteBro, I don’t think you have any idea how ignorant you sound. The U.S. Constitution was-is one of the most significant documents ever in the history of the world. The U.S. revolution was so much more than a revolution for the colonies. It was a world wide statement of a thirst for freedom and democracy. That document and the history around it has greatly influenced and changed history all over the world.
i doubt jacob intended to offense the historical relevance of the constitution.
what i understand and what i support is: perhaps from time to time this holy cow, that is the constitution, should be butchered. i mean, considering how old it is.
btw another question out of curiosity. i have the feeling, youre an expert on this.
how does the constitution relate to other law texts? or such as the un charta or the declaration of human rights? are there conflicts between them?
Ha bro I'm not an expert on anything. I just know what I google when I'm bored and what I read in magazines when I'm waiting to get my hair cut. I really don't know a whole lot ( except the bare basics ) about both documents. I mean I always thought the UN Charter was more of an anti war document. But I guess I don't really know.
I can tell you that I know the US often acts illegally according to its constitution based on UN resolutions. According to the law of the US, only congress has the right to make many of the calls that the UN now tries to make for the US. The constitution is still the supreme law of the land in the US. Not the UN Charter or UN resolutions. I'm actually not a fan of the UN at all.
Quote from: Variable on Sep 08, 2009, 11:20 PM
Just this happened to be the grounds where the world wide revolution really gained its momentum.
::)
Quote from: tarkil on Sep 09, 2009, 08:17 AM
Quote from: Variable on Sep 08, 2009, 11:20 PM
Just this happened to be the grounds where the world wide revolution really gained its momentum.
::)
you see, Tarkil... as Americans have very little history and no real common ancestors they have to make what little history they have so much more important.
I hope I won't sound like I'm superior or anything (not my intention anyway) but yes, I did notice this kind of self centered behaviour before indeed...
But yeah, what can you do....
it's definitely not my intention either and I'm sick of people always taking it as a personal insult when I speak my mind about mainly the US. I'm not speaking ill of any particular person, after all. and if any american is willing to try to change my mind in a civilized way, then I'm all for it.
but yes, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the US has always tried to make itself more important historically and culturally because it in fact lacks much in those areas. my dad loves to travel and has nothing at all against the US, but what he says every time he's been there is that there is nothing to see, no historical monuments, no historical places, no cultural heritage. the closest you can come to that is probably the small indian communities that are treated like outsiders.
I'm sorry but you guys could at least back this up with facts or events that would say I'm wrong. You Tarkil of all people should know that the French Revolution was greatly inspired by the American Revolution. Also I understand all the centuries that brought America to the revolution. I understand that philosophers like Locke and Voltaire inspired the founding fathers to do what they did. I understand that the US was not the first democracy and not the only one of its time. But the large majority of western civilization were still monarchies that all started to topple over after the American Revolution. This much I know is a fact.
Quote from: Jacob on Sep 08, 2009, 05:14 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 08, 2009, 04:13 PM
How about a little thing called the constitution?
gb2 being foreign
omfg, I would wipe my ass with the constitution if I could.
it's not that I don't agree with most of what it says, but the way you americans so blindly refer to it disgusts me just as much as any religious nut refers to the bible.
Dude. It's that the constitution IS STILL OUR LAW. It's still legally just as important (clearly not treated that way, but it should be) as it was when it was ratified, which is why people always go back to it when the government tries to pass new laws, as they should. If they want to completely circumvent the constitution, then they should pass a new one or there's no point in having one. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
And I agree, saying that just sounds so very ignorant from that point of view.
But then they roll their eyes at me
Quote from: Jacob on Sep 09, 2009, 10:00 AM
it's definitely not my intention either and I'm sick of people always taking it as a personal insult when I speak my mind about mainly the US. I'm not speaking ill of any particular person, after all. and if any american is willing to try to change my mind in a civilized way, then I'm all for it.
but yes, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the US has always tried to make itself more important historically and culturally because it in fact lacks much in those areas. my dad loves to travel and has nothing at all against the US, but what he says every time he's been there is that there is nothing to see, no historical monuments, no historical places, no cultural heritage. the closest you can come to that is probably the small indian communities that are treated like outsiders.
no monuments? no cultural heritage? you gotta be kidding me, he must be visiting little rock arkansas
tell him to come to new orleans and im sure his mind will be altered indefinitely :)
Yeah actually I missed that part for some reason. There are monuments and historical sights all over America. Especially on the east coast and in the south.
tell me about them. I'd love to know more.
Quote from: alvarezbassist17 on Sep 09, 2009, 02:48 PM
Dude. It's that the constitution IS STILL OUR LAW. It's still legally just as important (clearly not treated that way, but it should be) as it was when it was ratified, which is why people always go back to it when the government tries to pass new laws, as they should. If they want to completely circumvent the constitution, then they should pass a new one or there's no point in having one. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
And I agree, saying that just sounds so very ignorant from that point of view.
I know it's still your law, and you're yet again missing my point.
let's just put it like this - if we were to have discussion on gun laws and I asked you why it should be legal for all americans to own a gun, and you replied "because it says so in the constitution", I'd react the way I did in this thread. if you had replied with any real arguments we could have continued the discussion. and that's exaclty the type of comment Josh made, which made me reply like that. how was only kidding, so we don't even have to go down that road.
I'm not the least interest in discussing american laws and how important the constitution was once upon a time. but I will ask this - haven't there recently been changes made to that document to make room for new laws or change old ones?
Yeah. The constitution can be amended. That's the point. Its timeless.
And I totally understand your point. But you did not say it like that at first. You said we ignore gun laws because of the constitution. Not that we ignore the philosophy behind gun laws because of it.
But either way, most gun laws are ridiculous. In most cases I don't support the government taking its citizens rights away ( in this case the kind of cigarettes they can buy ) But its not very hard at all to objectively look at gun laws and see that to think they will lower gun crimes is just wishful thinking. Making something illegal has never in history stopped it from happening. I'm pretty dam sure Americans will continue to smoke whatever kind of tobacco they want. Just now it will be more expensive, they might have to worry about harassment, and it could open up some sort of new crime syndicate.
that's exaclty how I said it at first, you must have misunderstood me. but I tire of this, so let's drop it.
I don't believe in taking peoples rights away either, but guns is a whole different thing. I'm very glad we have the gun laws we have here in sweden, or I'd be much more scared of living in the neighbourhood I live in. and you can't really compare guns with cigarettes in this case, if you ask me. if guns were illegal you'd have to turn to pretty heavy criminals to obtain them, but getting a pack of cigarettes from any nearby country wouldn't exaclty be hard.
A ban on guns and a ban on certain types of tobacco are for sure different in some ways. But they still hold the same principal of government getting involved in personal and private decisions. This just does not need to happen. For some reason people, especially people in high places, seem to think they actually have the ability to control other people. This is not reality. My parents telling me not to go out and get in trouble never once prevented me from going out and getting into trouble if I wanted to. Police pulling me over and giving me tickets has never stopped me from speeding. The war on drugs hasn't stopped me from doing anything I wanted if I felt like it. And believe me, all these silly laws about what kinds of weapons I can and can't own have not stopped me from seeking out and finding whatever I wanted. And I'm not so different from most other people.
Here is a really simplistic way of why I believe in the right to bear arms, and concealed to carry. Imagine a scary movie ( a realistic one where the killer can be killed. I like to use the movie vacancy for this example ) Now imagine that movie where the victims had 45s tucked into the small of their backs. Story over real quick for the killer.
Most who appose the right to bear arms would say that it makes society safer because it eliminates guns. But we all know that is childish and fool hearted to believe. All it does is disarm law abiding citizens. Weapons trade is a major world wide underground market. The flood gates simply open with a certain weapon is made illegal. Anyone who would care to, could illegally obtain a weapon the same as marijuana , cocaine, steroids, and Cuban cigars. So you're supporting taking weapons ( and the ability to use equal force for self defense ) away from the good law abiding citizens, knowing dam well that criminals will continue to have them. How on earth does that make sense to anyone?
Plus we all know murders will not go down. Look at prisons in America. They have the highest murder rate in the entire nation ( possibly the world ) and none of the murders have a gun. This only proves that people will still murder no matter what. It is not about weapons. It is about society and the psyche of the person. I'm not saying murders would go up if guns disappeared ( I don't think anyone can prove that ) But I do know my ability to use a gun to defend myself against an assailant with a gun would go away. I don't like that.
You say you feel safer in a society without guns? Ill share this fact with you. I want you to understand first though that this is a fact. Its not rhetoric or propaganda. This is raw intel received straight from uncovered Al Qaeda planning rooms. It really pisses me off when people roll their eyes at this or try to brush it off like its nothing. Anyways
After a raid and all that good stuff. They uncovered that Al Qaeda were planning multiple attacks on US soil. The priority seemed to be to take over a school and kill torture all the children ( Al Qaeda made a statement that the massacre in Beslan was just a test for what was to come to schools in the US. ) However a very interesting thing that was uncovered was that Al Qaeda had great interest in looking at the amount of privately registered weapons in cities and communities. They were looking up the amount of police to citizen ratio and the amount of guns to citizens ratio. Why? Because they don't want to try to pull off an attack in an area where people are packing. One or two parents with handguns could throw a huge wrench into the operation. So yeah, they were only planning operations in areas with strict gun control laws and a very liberal atmosphere about violence and weapons. Like it or not. That's a fucking fact brother. Here is a pic for some food for though.
(http://bp1.blogger.com/_ztovbV7vTOo/Rq3HBfudiAI/AAAAAAAABs0/9MhgRwhWgZ0/s400/beslan.jpg)
This is what actually happens in reality when citizens are not armed and people have been conditioned to not be violent in self defense. The story about Al Qaeda planning these attacks in areas of low weapons was hardly publicized because the government didn't want to scare the public into letting them know how close these attacks were to happening to their children. But its still true. "thos who can't kill will always be subject to those who can."
But hey, at least all you anti gun Nazis got your principals and philosophies to hold on to.
And that's all I really care to say about that. I was trying to stay away from the subject because of how ridiculously off subject it is. But people keep bringing it up so I didn't care to bite my tong anymore.
you know what, I started reading all that, then I just decided not to bother and just state again: I'm glad we have the gun laws we have here in Sweden. and I will add this: there aren't armed murderers running around on the streets here shooting defenseless people and we're not the target of terror attacks. actually, armed robbery is very rare. and when a robber is armed, it's usually with a knife.
If you're ok being ignorant to facts then that's on you brother.
But you did bring up a good point. Each society is different. Meaning each society needs different laws and philosophies to govern it. So its kind of annoying when certain Europeans try to throw their opinions in about American society when its different.
LOL...nah,ya'll just use swords and axes and shit.
(http://www.home.no/oliver/web_pics/viking.jpg)
;D
yeah. People act like there was no murder or violence before firearms.
In fact. I think I'm going to go to sweeden and shank someone just to piss Jacob off.
Hells yeah! I'll go with you just so I can stalk Alexander Skarsgard!
Well then. I guess this is happening
Awshum.
I actually just bought a great knife for shanking people. But I was supposed to only use it on Taliban ( ironic in this topic. How I bought a knife even though I will have two guns on me at all times..... think about it you haters)
why would that piss me off? it'd actually kind of make me happy that you'd go through all that just for little ol' me :)
I'm not trying to be ignorant dude, I know there are many arguments for arming yourself too. but I've heard it all before and there are no "facts" you can bring forth that will make me realize our laws and those of a lot of other countries are just plain wrong. I just don't see it happening here or in pretty much any other country where it's currently illegal. and I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone - that's just the turn this discussion took. but it's kind of typical how you immediately have to prove someone "wrong" when you see something you don't agree with, Trey.
and did I ever say there were no murders before firearms? not at all. I'm saying that at least here most murders aren't done with firearms. and why the fuck do you think that's the case? because every stupid idiot doesn't have the right to carry a gun just like that.
you're forgetting the FACT that a society that doesn't see carrying a gun as a personal right and something fully normal has a lot more respect for guns.
The only reason I have a gun is because I am a female,(zomg Kelly admitted she's not as strong as a dude!!) and I am home a LOT at nights by myself. If someone were to break into my house,I will gladly shoot them. I have 2 children to protect, no way am I just gonna sit back and let someone come in my house and try and cause harm to me or my family. To me that's completely justifiable. Now they recently passed a law here allowing guns in parks. To me that is completely ridiculous. This is a public place where children are running around. Why on earth would you need a gun at a park?!?!
you'll have to forgive me for painting up these scenarios (they are very exaggerated and horrible but in no way impossible), but since you have a gun at home what about...
1. if you had a very serious fight with your husband, things got out of control, one of you went to get the gun and shot the other, maybe even killed them?
2. your kids got curious when you or their dad are not around and end up hurting themselves or someone else?
3. your teenage kid is extremely depressed, remembers that you have a gun at home, and take their own life in your kitchen?
I could go on, but hopefully you see my point here - having a gun at home is so much more complex that just being able to defend yourself.
and actually, if it was any time at all I wouldn't mind carrying a gun it would be while walking through a park late at night, or just walking by myself late at night in general. not at home.
i guess one main problem is that the usa have created hard facts with their laws. the government would have a really hard time going around and collecting the guns of the people. when i think of american ghettos and other problematic american societies, it could really mean really hard losses to disarm all of those.
i am pretty sure i would never leave the house when everyone here would own a gun. sure. if someone really wants to posses one, he or she might get it. but i guess our gun laws and controls are pretty good and i dont hear about gun fights that often.
when some kid here went out to make one of these cruel school massacres, honestl noone would say something like : all the other kids and teachers should have owned guns to kill the murderer before he starts. instead they looked why the kid could posess a gun and all and why noone noticed that something was wrong with him.
and i dont like the idea that is the ground for an argument like :when everyone has a gun, everyone will be safe. this sounds to me as if the society is arranged around the fear and mistrust for other people. the orginally aimed feeling of security is perverted by everyone feeling unsecure because most people probablly arent "well regulated" and there for potentially create danger to others.
oh and: safe your energy for the taliban. and pleas win. thank you.
Quote from: devilinside on Sep 10, 2009, 12:16 PM
The only reason I have a gun is because I am a female,(zomg Kelly admitted she's not as strong as a dude!!) and I am home a LOT at nights by myself. If someone were to break into my house,I will gladly shoot them. I have 2 children to protect, no way am I just gonna sit back and let someone come in my house and try and cause harm to me or my family. To me that's completely justifiable. Now they recently passed a law here allowing guns in parks. To me that is completely ridiculous. This is a public place where children are running around. Why on earth would you need a gun at a park?!?!
i have to be harsh here. i hope you go to jail for the rest of your life if you kill a thief just because you think he could mean a threat to your families lives.
2. just bring your own gun to the park and join your kids playing cowboy and indian (or native american? you know what i mean).
Quote from: Variable on Sep 10, 2009, 05:35 AM
I actually just bought a great knife for shanking people. But I was supposed to only use it on Taliban ( ironic in this topic. How I bought a knife even though I will have two guns on me at all times..... think about it you haters)
(http://www.terma-nator.com/images/motivation/Spetsnaz.jpg)
Well, I've been married over 10 years and so far so good. But the same could be said for a kitchen knife, hammer, CAR...you could get killed by any of those,and they're completely legal. And I'm not stupid! I have a safety lock on the gun,and the key to the lock are in a safe in my closet. They will never be able to get in the safe because it's a complex combination on numbers and turns. But I've done a few run thrus and can get it open pretty fast. I don't keep loaded guns up in my closet for them to just grab.
Quote from: Nailec on Sep 10, 2009, 12:36 PM
Quote from: devilinside on Sep 10, 2009, 12:16 PM
The only reason I have a gun is because I am a female,(zomg Kelly admitted she's not as strong as a dude!!) and I am home a LOT at nights by myself. If someone were to break into my house,I will gladly shoot them. I have 2 children to protect, no way am I just gonna sit back and let someone come in my house and try and cause harm to me or my family. To me that's completely justifiable. Now they recently passed a law here allowing guns in parks. To me that is completely ridiculous. This is a public place where children are running around. Why on earth would you need a gun at a park?!?!
i have to be harsh here. i hope you go to jail for the rest of your life if you kill a thief just because you think he could mean a threat to your families lives.
2. just bring your own gun to the park and join your kids playing cowboy and indian (or native american? you know what i mean).
If you think that someone breaking into your home is going to greet you with a smile and a "hi how are ya!",then you're completely retarded. And if I shot him (or her),it would be out of self defense. This STRANGER is in MY HOUSE,with god knows what kind of intentions!! And I wouldn't go to jail,because again, it would be self defense..and the court would rule in my favor since this was a stranger in my home without my permission.
that's what I imagined, and you say you've done a few run throughs - but could you realistically get it out that fast, load it and be able to even hit someone with it while under all that stress? considering the burglar will most likely be armed, which is the sole reason why you even have that gun.
like I said, I'm exaggerating a bit here, but I'm just trying to show that there are a lot more aspects to it. and make you realize why I think it's natural and comforting to live in a country without thousands of guns in thousands of unreliabable peoples homes.
Quote from: Nailec on Sep 10, 2009, 12:36 PM
Quote from: devilinside on Sep 10, 2009, 12:16 PM
The only reason I have a gun is because I am a female,(zomg Kelly admitted she's not as strong as a dude!!) and I am home a LOT at nights by myself. If someone were to break into my house,I will gladly shoot them. I have 2 children to protect, no way am I just gonna sit back and let someone come in my house and try and cause harm to me or my family. To me that's completely justifiable. Now they recently passed a law here allowing guns in parks. To me that is completely ridiculous. This is a public place where children are running around. Why on earth would you need a gun at a park?!?!
i have to be harsh here. i hope you go to jail for the rest of your life if you kill a thief just because you think he could mean a threat to your families lives.
while that was a bit too harsh imo, that's also another point I forgot to bring up. the results of actually killing someone with a gun, even if it's in self-defense. I'm not sure how it works in the US, but here you would definitely go to jail.
I think it would be great if people didn't have guns,but unfortunately they do,so I prepare myself. No way around it. (unless I moved out of the country I guess) :/
And I handle stress every day,I can totally do it! hah Seriously though,I'm very confident when it comes to loading and shooting a gun. It only takes a second to pop the clip in and I'm ready to fire. But hopefully it will never ever have to come to that. I live in a pretty good community,so hopefully it will stay that way. I also have a baseball bat behind my bed in case I can't get to the gun quick enough. HAHA!!!
Quote from: Jacob on Sep 10, 2009, 12:57 PM
Quote from: Nailec on Sep 10, 2009, 12:36 PM
Quote from: devilinside on Sep 10, 2009, 12:16 PM
The only reason I have a gun is because I am a female,(zomg Kelly admitted she's not as strong as a dude!!) and I am home a LOT at nights by myself. If someone were to break into my house,I will gladly shoot them. I have 2 children to protect, no way am I just gonna sit back and let someone come in my house and try and cause harm to me or my family. To me that's completely justifiable. Now they recently passed a law here allowing guns in parks. To me that is completely ridiculous. This is a public place where children are running around. Why on earth would you need a gun at a park?!?!
i have to be harsh here. i hope you go to jail for the rest of your life if you kill a thief just because you think he could mean a threat to your families lives.
while that was a bit too harsh imo, that's also another point I forgot to bring up. the results of actually killing someone with a gun, even if it's in self-defense. I'm not sure how it works in the US, but here you would definitely go to jail.
It varies by states,but in Tennessee if you can prove it was self defense,then you're clear.
QuoteAnd I handle stress every day,I can totally do it! hah Seriously though,I'm very confident when it comes to loading and shooting a gun. It only takes a second to pop the clip in and I'm ready to fire. But hopefully it will never ever have to come to that. I live in a pretty good community,so hopefully it will stay that way. I also have a baseball bat behind my bed in case I can't get to the gun quick enough. HAHA!!!
that sounded kinda hot.
My girl friend actually always gives me shit because I literally take my gun everywhere with me. It sleeps with me too. But even a little bit of good training can allow you to do things like this safely. I really do believe its all about psyche and training of the person. Not the weapon they have. I got jumped by 8 guys about 3 weekends ago and had a knife and a gun. I didn't use either. Didn't feel the need to because I didn't feel like they were going to kill me. *shrugs*
i completely agree with kelly. i do not own a gun, but only because i live in a very small (one square mile) town. where the biggest threat is 15 yr olds loitering outside the 7-11. but if i lived somewhere i didn't feel safe i would definitly get a gun. i would of course become trained in cleaning, loading, and shooting so i didn't hurt myself. and i would make sure my son never even knew it was in the house. if you buy it and hide it (safely), there would be no reason for a child to know you own a gun. unless you try to impress him/her "hey look what i got today!!!".
as for jacob's scenarios. the second and third wouldn't apply if i do a good enough job keeping it from my son. and for the first one...well bitch should've had dinner ready when i got home. J/K :)
and variable, that must be a military thing. my girls brother was navy, just got out a year or two ago. and he always has his gun on him.
oh and your story is so rediculously manly it sounds fake. unlike the time i got jumped by 25...no 30! ninjas ROBOT NINJAS. each one had a katana in one hand and laser gun in the other (i am all for banning laser guns btw jacob). all i had on me was a chewed toothpick and a spatula. but i didn't use either. i killed all 30 of the robot ninjas with 3 1/2 roundhouse kicks. all while getting a blowjob from angelina jolie...and brad pitt.
Yeah but mine is actually true. I didn't claim to win the fight. If the police hadn't maced us I probably would have got hurt pretty bad. You can read the whole story in whiteponys @ thread if you really care to examine my integrity. Just look for the pic of me with stiches.
The point though was that me and by buddy ( who is a marine ) got jumped. He knew I had weapons. Neither of us went for them. Because we are trained in how to think clear in stressful scenarios. They heavily press on us escalation of force and proportional force ( in law of war classes ). Simple training like this for civilians before being able to legally own a gun would prevent a lot of problems. Because no matter how much I love my marine buddies. Not all of them are the brightest. So if they can grasp it, and actually apply it. I know most everyone else can.
I did just realize that I was a bit misleading in what I said. I had the gun in my hotel room a couple blocks away. Only my knife on my person. Im not going to bring a gun bar hopping. But what my point about the gun was that I could have very easily gone back to get it and found these guys again ( as they were working so I knew where they would be ) and retaliated out of anger. I even saw them the next day when the gun was actually on me and just let it go. Not everyone is crazy and impulsive.
LOL i was just fucking with you dude. and who says mine isn't true?
me
I just decided to stop reading this thread to post a few things. I don't know if they have been mentioned because as I said, I stopped reading.
1. If an intruder breaks into your home and you shoot them with a weapon registered in your name, it will almost positively be ruled as self-defense. The only think you will really have to deal with is the knowledge that you ended a life, which in my opinion is much much worse than any jail time you might receive due to killing someone you didn't want in your house.
2. It seems to be that everyone is forgetting that there is a large market for unregistered guns which would STILL EXIST if we weren't allowed to own them legally. Anyone with half a brain and the intent to commit murder would NEVER use a registered weapon.
No matter how fucked up you may take this, I am just going to say, that I have thought about this quite a bit. And anyone that says they have not thought about killing another person is a liar.
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 12, 2009, 01:43 AM
I just decided to stop reading this thread to post a few things. I don't know if they have been mentioned because as I said, I stopped reading.
The only think you will really have to deal with is the knowledge that you ended a life, which in my opinion is much much worse than any jail time you might receive due to killing someone you didn't want in your house.
I can honestly say I wouldn't have a problem with that for a single second. Not if they came into my house. Not if it was self defense. I would be perfectly fine with it. Believe me, if it comes down to a you or then scenario, all these philosophies and wishful thinking progressive bull shit goes out the window. There is the way it should be, and the way it is. Some people will kill you if you don't kill them in the real world. I have no remorse about that.
I think you would feel differently after you killed someone and realized that they probably had as much of a life than you, if pitiful by comparison.
I live in the hood and I wouldn't mind killing someone that tries to invade and trespass on the property that my single mother works fucking hard for.
Again, I think that you'd feel a little differently when the actual situation arose. You say that now, but once you had that gun aimed, do you really think you could just pull the trigger and end a human life and live on, guilt free? I think it's pretty idiotic for anyone to say that.
i don't know why anyone would feel guilty for doing what they had to do to pretect them self and their family. were not talking about walking down the street and shooting someone in cold blood. this would be a stranger coming into your house, violating your HOME, you place of safety and sancuary. with intentions of robbing or raping or killing. damn straight they deserve to be shoot. right in the fucking face.
Quote from: Variable on Sep 12, 2009, 06:28 AM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 12, 2009, 01:43 AM
I just decided to stop reading this thread to post a few things. I don't know if they have been mentioned because as I said, I stopped reading.
The only think you will really have to deal with is the knowledge that you ended a life, which in my opinion is much much worse than any jail time you might receive due to killing someone you didn't want in your house.
I can honestly say I wouldn't have a problem with that for a single second. Not if they came into my house. Not if it was self defense. I would be perfectly fine with it. Believe me, if it comes down to a you or then scenario, all these philosophies and wishful thinking progressive bull shit goes out the window. There is the way it should be, and the way it is. Some people will kill you if you don't kill them in the real world. I have no remorse about that.
Quote from: Jerry_Curls on Sep 12, 2009, 12:42 PM
I live in the hood and I wouldn't mind killing someone that tries to invade and trespass on the property that my single mother works fucking hard for.
Quote from: devlin on Sep 12, 2009, 01:24 PM
i don't know why anyone would feel guilty for doing what they had to do to pretect them self and their family. were not talking about walking down the street and shooting someone in cold blood. this would be a stranger coming into your house, violating your HOME, you place of safety and sancuary. with intentions of robbing or raping or killing. damn straight they deserve to be shoot. right in the fucking face.
I agree completely with you three. I would feel REALLY fucking guilty if I didn't do shit and they hurt my children! You come in my house and I will fuck you up. No remorse. People have different ways of handling things,and I for one can tell you that I would not feel one ounce of sympathy for the poor fucker I killed. I'm a cold hearted bitch,except when it comes to the ones I love.
and its my RIGHT to own a gun....god bless the constitution!
Regardless of whatever self-defense scenario you are putting yourself in, you are still ENDING A LIFE and nobody is actually thinking about this. Anyone can say "I could kill a man if he was trying to steal my shit or hurt my children" and sure, yeah, maybe you could kill this person, but to say that you could continue living with no remorse is unbelievably naive.
And you telling us how we would feel is silly. You're speaking on behalf of how you would feel. I don't feel that way. I don't care enough about people to give a shit if I shot someone coming in my house. My life>their life
just because you can't fathom it, doesn't mean it's not possible. if anything you sound unbeilivable naive to think everyone would feel the same as you.
So you're all saying that you don't give a shit about human life and you're all more important, am I right?
My life is more important that some stupid shit that's breaking into my house,yes. What would you do if you had a house and your little sister was staying with you and some coked out junkie broke into your house and tried to rape her?? Call the cops and wait till he's already done something horrible to her? Can you REALLY say you'd just sit back and wait and not want to kill the bastard for taking your sisters innocence???
Oh,and :
Quote from: devilinside on Sep 12, 2009, 03:05 PM
And you telling us how we would feel is silly. You're speaking on behalf of how you would feel. I don't feel that way. I don't care enough about people to give a shit if I shot someone coming in my house. My life>their life
no. but would i let some one shoot me rather than shoot them? no. would i feel bad about killing some one who would have killed me? no.
again not talking about random killings here.
Sight. Maybe I am not making myself clear.
Maybe my point is just being misunderstood. I don't know but it's fucking 8:30 am and I haven't slept yet. Night bitches.
I think we completely understand what you're saying, it's you that's not comprehending. Yes it's a life,no we don't give a fuck. Guess we'll just have to agree is disagree on this subject. :)
Quote from: devilinside on Sep 12, 2009, 03:36 PM
I think we completely understand what you're saying, it's you that's not comprehending. Yes it's a life,no we don't give a fuck. Guess we'll just have to agree is disagree on this subject. :)
took the words right out of my mouth...er fingers? how does that translate to typing? :)
LOL! Took the thought right from my fingers? I dunno..haha!
I would rather die myself than take another life, no matter the situation.
KELLY, I AM GOING TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOUSE AND RAPE YOUR DOGS OUT OF SPITE.
I don't have any dogs...but you can have a go at my cat!
Josh Im not trying to sound all hard body here. But I think you might have forgotten my job and my experiences and that Im a combat vet. Believe me buddy, I would know. And no, no remorse. Its that simple for me.
Do I think Im more important than any other life? In like a big picture ideological kind of way, no. But to me, hell yes. In a primal me or them kind of way. Hell yes my life is more important to me than theirs. That only makes sense.
Quote from: wither-I on Sep 12, 2009, 03:42 PM
I would rather die myself than take another life, no matter the situation.
honestly in a life or death situation i doubt you wouldn't kill. self preservation is encoded deep within our dna. you may feel remorse that others might not. but i'm sure survival instinct would over come.
Rambo 4 comes to mind
Quote from: Variable on Sep 12, 2009, 05:04 PM
Josh Im not trying to sound all hard body here. But I think you might have forgotten my job and my experiences and that Im a combat vet. Believe me buddy, I would know. And no, no remorse. Its that simple for me.
Do I think Im more important than any other life? In like a big picture ideological kind of way, no. But to me, hell yes. In a primal me or them kind of way. Hell yes my life is more important to me than theirs. That only makes sense.
Have you ever shot anyone?
Quote from: Variable on Sep 12, 2009, 08:58 PM
Rambo 4 comes to mind
When you're pushed, killin's as easy as breathin'.
(http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/ul/351-Rambo.jpg)
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 13, 2009, 12:36 AM
Quote from: Variable on Sep 12, 2009, 05:04 PM
Josh Im not trying to sound all hard body here. But I think you might have forgotten my job and my experiences and that Im a combat vet. Believe me buddy, I would know. And no, no remorse. Its that simple for me.
Do I think Im more important than any other life? In like a big picture ideological kind of way, no. But to me, hell yes. In a primal me or them kind of way. Hell yes my life is more important to me than theirs. That only makes sense.
Have you ever shot anyone?
Im not getting into that conversation here
Quote from: Variable on Sep 13, 2009, 01:40 AM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on Sep 13, 2009, 12:36 AM
Quote from: Variable on Sep 12, 2009, 05:04 PM
Josh Im not trying to sound all hard body here. But I think you might have forgotten my job and my experiences and that Im a combat vet. Believe me buddy, I would know. And no, no remorse. Its that simple for me.
Do I think Im more important than any other life? In like a big picture ideological kind of way, no. But to me, hell yes. In a primal me or them kind of way. Hell yes my life is more important to me than theirs. That only makes sense.
Have you ever shot anyone?
Im not getting into that conversation here
Why not?
That's exactly my point. You don't know.
It was a read between the lines statement Josh. So fucking do it.