its been a while since ive been on but im not likin how this site is now back then ppl were actyally nice and chill now its filled with assholes.
y is it that ppl r bein mean to others this is supposed to bring us together because we all share somethin in common!
me and another member talked about this last night.
because of a lack of topics i think. and everyone here is just pissed off about something or it can be everything. and when you're an asshole to someone over an internet board they dont have to look at your reaction and it can easily be disregarded. yes we all share a common interest in one of the greatest bands ever but then again we all see things differently. sometimes i think to myself that the people that are on this board who are complete dicks probably get fucked with and treated like shit. so instead of manning up and taking their problems head on, they take it out on people who can't do anything but write something back to them hoping to have something more creative or more intricate. then again...what fun would it be if we were all nice to each other? for lack of a better term...it would be fucking boring.
Quote from: momo on May 04, 2010, 08:11 AM
its been a while since ive been on but im not likin how this site is now back then ppl were actyally nice and chill now its filled with assholes.
y is it that ppl r bein mean to others this is supposed to bring us together because we all share somethin in common!
me and another member talked about this last night.
well, this is not entirely true. yes, there are major assholes on SL these days, but I personally have a lot of internet-friends (lol) here, which I am happy to communicate. SL is my favorite internet community, after all
meh...just the vibe i get from some people here.
People like to feel superior, it's become a trend, lately, that's why they break the others' nerves with their irony and shit, and that's why the others are mean too, because they only defend themselves. That's my case.
there's been a pretty hostile atmosphere here for years now. there came a bunch of new people around the same time and pretty much dragged the place down. it's been a getting a bit better lately though.
but the thing is, people don't bother to act nice on the internet anymore. anywhere you go there are assholes. I've just stopped caring. I'm not here to make friends for life anyway - sure it's nice to talk to like-minded people, but I have all the friends I need in real life already.
i visited a thread on sl once.. the discussion between these two dudes were:
a "oooh.. i just love your paintings!" :-* :-*
b "oh thanks! and i just looooove your music!!" :-* :-* :-* :-*
a" you do?? thanks! i just loooove your sig.. i think i want to suck your dick!"
b "ok!! then maybe u can fuck me in the ass because were so awesome!!!!"
and it did go on like that.in that case i prefer some namecalling or hot debate but hey thats just me
and some people just like to troll...
yeah maybe they were trolling,very irritating... they sure knew how to push buttons
Quote from: momo on May 04, 2010, 08:11 AM
its been a while since ive been on but im not likin how this site is now back then ppl were actyally nice and chill now its filled with assholes.
y is it that ppl r bein mean to others this is supposed to bring us together because we all share somethin in common!
me and another member talked about this last night.
get the fuck out of here then you fucking faggot
It's more the raging sexual tension on this board. Lots of people need to get laid more often, me included.
I would suggest a SL orgy, however I fear it would be a sausage fest of epic proportions.
haha, yeah.. probably because we've managed to scare away all the hot girls that have been here. trust me, there's been a few.
Quote from: jesusinabowlofdirt on May 04, 2010, 03:04 PM
a "oooh.. i just love your paintings!" :-* :-*
b "oh thanks! and i just looooove your music!!" :-* :-* :-* :-*
wow, this was a direct reference towards me and wither-I. lol, man, you made me laugh a little
Quote from: Penicks on May 04, 2010, 05:08 PM
Quote from: momo on May 04, 2010, 08:11 AM
its been a while since ive been on but im not likin how this site is now back then ppl were actyally nice and chill now its filled with assholes.
y is it that ppl r bein mean to others this is supposed to bring us together because we all share somethin in common!
me and another member talked about this last night.
get the fuck out of here then you fucking faggot
see dude...why?
because
1) internet
2) jokes
some of you guys just can't combine both
well im glad im not the only that feels that ;D
Quote from: Penicks on May 04, 2010, 08:08 PM
because
1) internet
2) jokes
some of you guys just can't combine both
yeah...i bet.
I think it's the raging stupidity on this board as well (i.e. the KFC thread). Don't get me wrong there are some pretty intelligent people on this board, but the majority can't even form a comprehensive sentence, let alone an argument. It's easy to get angry and turn into an asshole.
yeah i'm guilty of being an asshole on here sometimes. on a few occasions i've been downright insufferable but i try to maintain a certain level of non-fucktardness. but as i've said before it is the internet. i've seen much, much worse.
Quote from: sing blue silver on May 05, 2010, 01:51 AM
yeah i'm guilty of being an asshole on here sometimes. on a few occasions i've been downright insufferable but i try to maintain a certain level of non-fucktardness. but as i've said before it is the internet. i've seen much, much worse.
i was on this board called 12oz prophet...now those guys were some assholes.
It's the internet. Grow a spine.
The trouble is that this is the internet and no one really gives a shit about anything.
yeah yeah, we know it's the internet and no one gives a shit but people want to make this place different so people saying, "it's just the internet" doesn't cut it.
like the kfc thread, as heaven mentioned, i'm not even going to be bothered to go in there anymore. it was a bunch of people who i thought were mature reacting like little children. it was disappointing to say the least. people need to learn how to speak to one another if this place is to get any better, and you know what? it is just the internet, but it still is a place where a form of communication is used just like in real life.
Ahh Blixa once again you seek to intellectualize matters, wasn't the KFC thread bad enough!
Only joking.
I appreciate that people like to have a debate without getting completely gunned by others with opposing opinions. Every 'noob' on here faces the same fate everytime they go up against someone who posts for a living on SL. The problem is that the faceless nature of the internet strips away peoples inhibitions, they will type exactly what they think. This can be taken as either offensive or refreshing, the internet allows everyone to have tourrettes syndrome, they will say what their subconscious is thinking. saying someone is a cunt when you're losing an argument is just too easy.
you need to intellectualise the situation because we're seeing these threads appear more and more. i think everyone needs to work on the problem to attempt to make this place better. you're never going to fix it because you touched on the internet being a faceless entity where we can become anyone we want, but being civil is the most anyone can be.
sorry, i've been reading a lot of proust lately. i'm talking arty farty.
Quote from: blixa on May 05, 2010, 01:09 PM
yeah yeah, we know it's the internet and no one gives a shit but people want to make this place different so people saying, "it's just the internet" doesn't cut it.
So you're saying you think we should only talk about butterflies and puppies and rainbows and pat each other on the back just for existing?
Talking about shit that matters naturally turns a conversation into a large debate because we're human. We're opinionated. It's in our nature to defend our beliefs.
You cite the KFC thread as an example of people being immature and incapable of having a discussion, but everyone WAS having a discussion. You just chose to ignore the people that were actually saying something of merit because they disagreed with you. Corey, for example, posted these huge long replies explaining the things he believes and you would reply with something that ignores everything he said that mattered. And then, to top it off, the first time someone said something in your defense, you praised that person and said something along the lines of it being a "mature and articulate response". Sure a few people were intent on berating you for no real reason, but still, can't you either a) not respond to that or b) respond in a way that isn't "you're wrong for believing differently than I"? Do you not think that that will make the situation worse? You were fueling the fire, not extinguishing it.
And you're all acting as if there was a time in the history of SL/Deftonesworld of complete peace with no assholes and nobody trying to get a rise out of people. If you think otherwise, you're sadly mistaken. In case you don't remember, I happened to be on the receiving end of the most shit I've ever seen anyone take on here (except perhaps, Ross) and do I give a shit? No. It's the internet. You can either converse, have fun, and give people shit, or you can get all personal and bitchy and cry. One is fun and cool and friendly and one just makes people annoyed at you.
And Mariam, I wouldn't expect you to be so completely blinded by your own feelings as to not realize how much of a self-righteous asshole you were being.
And now that I've been serious for once...
...penis.
People can try and be nice but the tension will be bubbling away under the surface, much like real life i suppose. Think we should embrace all traits of the human condition in this fucked up cross-continent medium we know as the internet.
Quote from: wheresmysnare on May 05, 2010, 02:03 PM
People can try and be nice but the tension will be bubbling away under the surface, much like real life i suppose. Think we should embrace all traits of the human condition in this fucked up cross-continent medium we know as the internet.
Fucking exactly.
"Hey guys! Stop being human!"
Fucking stupid, if you ask me.
I don't know there is something to be said for being civil in day to day 'real life' but it doesn't translate onto the internet.
Put it this way, if I was in a pub and saw someone talk to another person the way I see a lot on here, i'd think they were absolute gobby pricks and they'd probably get chucked out.
However, the internet is so far removed from reality, people will always say what they want, aside from moderators there is nothing to put people off. I think the internet is impersonal enough to not need moderators for things as trivial as discussions aabout bands/kfc/politics.
Indeed. Those people that get thrown out of bars though? They still exist. To pretend they don't, or to tell them to not be the way they are is unbelievably naive.
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on May 05, 2010, 01:59 PM
Quote from: blixa on May 05, 2010, 01:09 PM
yeah yeah, we know it's the internet and no one gives a shit but people want to make this place different so people saying, "it's just the internet" doesn't cut it.
So you're saying you think we should only talk about butterflies and puppies and rainbows and pat each other on the back just for existing?
Talking about shit that matters naturally turns a conversation into a large debate because we're human. We're opinionated. It's in our nature to defend our beliefs.
You cite the KFC thread as an example of people being immature and incapable of having a discussion, but everyone WAS having a discussion. You just chose to ignore the people that were actually saying something of merit because they disagreed with you. Corey, for example, posted these huge long replies explaining the things he believes and you would reply with something that ignores everything he said that mattered. And then, to top it off, the first time someone said something in your defense, you praised that person and said something along the lines of it being a "mature and articulate response". Sure a few people were intent on berating you for no real reason, but still, can't you either a) not respond to that or b) respond in a way that isn't "you're wrong for believing differently than I"? Do you not think that that will make the situation worse? You were fueling the fire, not extinguishing it.
And you're all acting as if there was a time in the history of SL/Deftonesworld of complete peace with no assholes and nobody trying to get a rise out of people. If you think otherwise, you're sadly mistaken. In case you don't remember, I happened to be on the receiving end of the most shit I've ever seen anyone take on here (except perhaps, Ross) and do I give a shit? No. It's the internet. You can either converse, have fun, and give people shit, or you can get all personal and bitchy and cry. One is fun and cool and friendly and one just makes people annoyed at you.
And Mariam, I wouldn't expect you to be so completely blinded by your own feelings as to not realize how much of a self-righteous asshole you were being.
And now that I've been serious for once...
...penis.
oh, i read them, i just didn't feel like repeating myself so i didn't say anything because i didn't feel like dragging it on. he was talking about other things, which were important, but i was strictly speaking about factory farming. i stated my opinion on the matter. if that makes me self-righteous than that's fine. i am vegan and i try to live my life as ethically as possible. i think that totally makes me self-righteous to others, and i don't even have to open my mouth to speak. i'm already an arsehole to you. i don't really care to be honest. i've been called the worst of the worst by people because i hold strong convictions. i was an animal rights activist and i spent a lot of time around elitist vegans, but believe it or not, i'm not as much of an elitist as they are. i don't even tell people i'm vegan anymore because they attack me straight away and get really defensive around me. it's fine if you don't want to agree with me, but i'm not going to change my opinion and belief about people who eat meat because i have a right to that opinion. reading those two, three responses didn't make me want to go back there and talk it out with them because i felt that there was no point. there were exceptions as there always are (corey being one of them), but the majority of people didn't respond very maturely. i didn't say that anyone who didn't agree with my opinion was wrong, i obviously thought the majority of people would be against factory farmed meat but i suppose that is not the case.
there has never been a time where there were no arseholes. that's why these threads pop up all the time. if people did try to be more civil in their responses, well, that would be nice, but that's not going to happen due to the unstable nature of the internet. i don't expect people to talk about rainbows, sunshine, and lollipops. if they want to then that's fine.
Being vegan and and stating an opinion doesn't make you self-righteous, but ramming your opinion down people's throats, telling them their beliefs are immoral and then saying that it's impossible to love animals and eat meat? That's self-righteousness if I've ever seen it. You're as bad as a fundamentalist christian.
"Jesus is lord. It's wrong to not believe in Jesus, our Savior. If you don't think so, you're going to go to the lake of fire suffer for eternity. I'm christian and that is my opinion." How can you not see that?
i don't for one second believe that a person can love animals and eat them. that is not my understanding of love. that is what i believe. i'm sorry if it felt like i was ramming it down your throat. if that makes me radical then that is fine, but i'm not going to change my mind about it. i just don't see how i can love a cow and be okay with it being slaughtered so i could eat it. if that is the way of life as people have suggested then i don't love animals. if you love puppies and kittens then say you love puppies and kittens, but to state that you love animals, which equates to every animal on this planet and then continue to eat meat...well, i'm sorry, i can't grasp that at all. it's like what my film lecturer said, "i love babe, that's why i don't eat pig meat." THANK YOU. when people say they love animals they are automatically excluding the animals that are raised for food, therefore rendering them as nobodies - they're the animals no one gives a shit about so the whole "i love animals" becomes a very exclusive statement.
i'm a very chill person overall. i don't stand around saying "NA-UH, NO YOU DON'T" whenever someone says to me that they love animals. i don't RAM it down their throat. i understand what they mean from that sentiment. i don't necessarily have to agree with them because i don't think the love they're talking about is the love that i believe them to be speaking about. i said every time "i don't believe that a person can love animals and eat them." the 'i' and the 'believe' should make it obvious that it is a personal opinion.
so far i'm an arsehole and a fundamentalist, and i haven't even condemned anyone to hell for eating meat yet. my reputation precedes me.
I wasn't really trying to bring the topic back up. I was trying to make you realize that you were fueling the fire and then blaming everyone else.
I'm done poking the bear, now.
can we not get on this again?
yeah, keep that discussion in the KFC thread or in private.
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on May 05, 2010, 03:39 PM
I wasn't really trying to bring the topic back up. I was trying to make you realize that you were fueling the fire and then blaming everyone else.
I'm done poking the bear, now.
unpopular opinions do that. i don't go around saying provocative shit all the time. when it comes to some aspects of animal rights i do have radical views, but to compare me to fundamentalist christians is just ignorant. i'm not standing in your front yard with signs condemning you to eternal fires of hell and physically attacking you because you choose to eat meat. fuck, i don't care about what you eat. i care about animals being treated well and respected. i know i'm a minority here. i didn't blame anyone. i just hated how most people reacted, which was immaturely.
the bear shall now return to the forest.
animals shmanimals, give me some god damned fucking steak
Quote from: Penicks on May 05, 2010, 05:49 PM
animals shmanimals, give me some god damned fucking steak
+1
all you can eat ribs tonight. mother nature will fear my wrath. sweet delicious murder.
Do you know I actually ate ribs for the first time last year? It was one of the most touching moments in my life. I felt so spiritually connected with my stomach. Man, do I love meat.
Quote from: Penicks on May 05, 2010, 05:55 PM
Do you know I actually ate ribs for the first time last year? It was one of the most touching moments in my life. I felt so spiritually connected with my stomach. Man, do I love meat.
i know the feeling all too well my friend.
Quote from: chick de la lynch on May 05, 2010, 01:03 AM
I think it's the raging stupidity on this board as well (i.e. the KFC thread). Don't get me wrong there are some pretty intelligent people on this board, but the majority can't even form a comprehensive sentence, let alone an argument. It's easy to get angry and turn into an asshole.
To be fair, there are alot of people on here whos first language is spanish or something (and other languages) that don't speak English in their day-to-day lives.
yeah, let's blame it on the Mexicans. they're truly dragging this place down.
Quote from: Jacob on May 05, 2010, 07:21 PM
yeah, let's blame it on the Mexicans. they're truly dragging this place down.
Fucking lol.
Quote from: godin on May 05, 2010, 07:07 PM
Quote from: chick de la lynch on May 05, 2010, 01:03 AM
I think it's the raging stupidity on this board as well (i.e. the KFC thread). Don't get me wrong there are some pretty intelligent people on this board, but the majority can't even form a comprehensive sentence, let alone an argument. It's easy to get angry and turn into an asshole.
To be fair, there are alot of people on here whos first language is spanish or something (and other languages) that don't speak English in their day-to-day lives.
It's pretty easy to tell between people who are non-English speakers and the people who can speak English but still can't manage to form a sentence. Either way it's the latter I have a problem with, not the former.
And it's Cinco de Mayo today! Let's celebrate the Mexicans!
Bout to go get trashed at a mexican restaurant I hear has good margaritas. They're 5 bucks, which seems like an alright deal to me.
I hope you have a dd for that thing
Quote from: Penicks on May 05, 2010, 05:49 PM
animals shmanimals, give me some god damned fucking steak
i've actually never had steak. ever. it's highly unlikely that i ever will.
Quote from: blixa on May 06, 2010, 01:39 AM
Quote from: Penicks on May 05, 2010, 05:49 PM
animals shmanimals, give me some god damned fucking steak
i've actually never had steak. ever. it's highly unlikely that i ever will.
you haven't lived. can't knock it til' you've tried it.
Quote from: sing blue silver on May 06, 2010, 01:43 AM
Quote from: blixa on May 06, 2010, 01:39 AM
Quote from: Penicks on May 05, 2010, 05:49 PM
animals shmanimals, give me some god damned fucking steak
i've actually never had steak. ever. it's highly unlikely that i ever will.
you haven't lived. can't knock it til' you've tried it.
hahaha it's alright. i have no interest in eating steak. my grandfather was a pig farmer so meat had been really big in my family. when i turned vegan a lot of things changed. the amount of meat my family eats now has remarkably decreased.
This place has always been faggy, fags. More people were assholes back in the day which made it funnier. A lot less whiners years ago as well.
To the OP, eat a dick.
Quote from: your sister gets me hard on May 06, 2010, 03:02 AM
This place has always been faggy, fags. More people were assholes back in the day which made it funnier. A lot less whiners years ago as well.
To the OP, eat a dick.
yeah back when this board was on deftones world there were some assholes...i can vouch for that.
Quote from: Jacob on May 05, 2010, 07:21 PM
yeah, let's blame it on the Mexicans. they're truly dragging this place down.
Don't forget the jews.
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on May 05, 2010, 01:59 PM
Quote from: blixa on May 05, 2010, 01:09 PM
yeah yeah, we know it's the internet and no one gives a shit but people want to make this place different so people saying, "it's just the internet" doesn't cut it.
So you're saying you think we should only talk about butterflies and puppies and rainbows and pat each other on the back just for existing?
Talking about shit that matters naturally turns a conversation into a large debate because we're human. We're opinionated. It's in our nature to defend our beliefs.
You cite the KFC thread as an example of people being immature and incapable of having a discussion, but everyone WAS having a discussion. You just chose to ignore the people that were actually saying something of merit because they disagreed with you. Corey, for example, posted these huge long replies explaining the things he believes and you would reply with something that ignores everything he said that mattered. And then, to top it off, the first time someone said something in your defense, you praised that person and said something along the lines of it being a "mature and articulate response". Sure a few people were intent on berating you for no real reason, but still, can't you either a) not respond to that or b) respond in a way that isn't "you're wrong for believing differently than I"? Do you not think that that will make the situation worse? You were fueling the fire, not extinguishing it.
And you're all acting as if there was a time in the history of SL/Deftonesworld of complete peace with no assholes and nobody trying to get a rise out of people. If you think otherwise, you're sadly mistaken. In case you don't remember, I happened to be on the receiving end of the most shit I've ever seen anyone take on here (except perhaps, Ross) and do I give a shit? No. It's the internet. You can either converse, have fun, and give people shit, or you can get all personal and bitchy and cry. One is fun and cool and friendly and one just makes people annoyed at you.
And Mariam, I wouldn't expect you to be so completely blinded by your own feelings as to not realize how much of a self-righteous asshole you were being.
And now that I've been serious for once...
...penis.
Jesus, thank you Josh. Thank you so much, the narcissist in me was thinking this whole thread was about me haha. I'll admit I get a little incensed and come off condescending at times, but I do try not to just make rash statements without explaining myself and put as much effort as my schedule allows into being coherent and intellectually consistent. But yeah Josh not to get all faggy and shit but I totally appreciate the support. I'm glad to see someone can tell that I'm not just trying to blow smoke up people's collective ass.
I also totally agree with your latter point, there has always been a minority of assholes here (and you've been a mighty fine convert, I mustn't neglect to mention haha), but I also can't remember the board without people bitching about how it's "changed" or "full of dicks and spammers now wahhh." And to be completely honest, the arguments are one of the only things that draw me to this section of the board anymore. Not to say it's bereft of benefit to anyone, that's just my personal experience.
Quote from: blixa on May 05, 2010, 02:32 PM
oh, i read them, i just didn't feel like repeating myself so i didn't say anything because i didn't feel like dragging it on. he was talking about other things, which were important, but i was strictly speaking about factory farming. i stated my opinion on the matter. if that makes me self-righteous than that's fine. i am vegan and i try to live my life as ethically as possible. i think that totally makes me self-righteous to others, and i don't even have to open my mouth to speak. i'm already an arsehole to you. i don't really care to be honest. i've been called the worst of the worst by people because i hold strong convictions. i was an animal rights activist and i spent a lot of time around elitist vegans, but believe it or not, i'm not as much of an elitist as they are. i don't even tell people i'm vegan anymore because they attack me straight away and get really defensive around me. it's fine if you don't want to agree with me, but i'm not going to change my opinion and belief about people who eat meat because i have a right to that opinion. reading those two, three responses didn't make me want to go back there and talk it out with them because i felt that there was no point. there were exceptions as there always are (corey being one of them), but the majority of people didn't respond very maturely. i didn't say that anyone who didn't agree with my opinion was wrong, i obviously thought the majority of people would be against factory farmed meat but i suppose that is not the case.
there has never been a time where there were no arseholes. that's why these threads pop up all the time. if people did try to be more civil in their responses, well, that would be nice, but that's not going to happen due to the unstable nature of the internet. i don't expect people to talk about rainbows, sunshine, and lollipops. if they want to then that's fine.
Pretty sure we both touched on a few more topics than merely factory farmed meat, and pretty sure I was talking about factory farmed meat too, I was just trying to explain how it has to do with economics. I think you'd have a huge leg-up on anyone FOR your cause if you would just learn those arguments I'm making for reforms that would actually work and change things for not only animals, but humans as well. But he's right, you really did ignore everything I said that mattered to the arguments, no wonder you and Nailec get along so well.
i did read your posts. i just didn't feel like responding to them at that point and didn't go back. but if you want to talk to me about them, go ahead. we can do it here because i'm not going back to the kfc thread. irregardless of the lack of knowledge i have about american economic reforms. i will do my best. i know a bit via cross-reference points with our economic system here.
to tell the truth, i'm more interested in sustainability. advocates of sustainable agriculture find common ground in criticising the polluting practices of factory livestock feeding operations but i found that when it came to minimising the ecological costs of keeping the country fed, the definition of sustainability ran the ideological gamut. agriculture is losing the family farm run model, where the farmer was the owner of the farm and animals, and provided the management and the labour. i know that this is true in america. they've lost the whole model of a farmer really being a farmer. i believe that raising animals for consumption is never truly sustainable, whether the livestock is force fed in feedlots or grazed over bucolic pastures. relatively "natural," small scale livestock production may avoid the most obvious environmental impacts of factory farms, but in the long run these methods are still far from sustainable, simply because they are not an efficient use of natural resources. and this is just me thinking outside of animal rights and my belief that animals are not food. oh shit, who would've thought.
i'm aware that having respect and compassion for animals is not enough to alter economics and the supply chain. i'm very aware of that. i can't remember the argument you were making but go on...
I'm confused as to what you mean by sustainability. I think environmentalists, etc. have a way different definition than the way I construe the term.
The main thing I don't think environmentalists understand is that their cause and ideologies have been hijacked by statists and socialists. They now believe that the only way to fix this problem is centralized control and regulation from people who "care more," when the people who end up in those positions are really only interested in control. The reason everything is so fucked up now, the reason that it's too expensive to farm "sustainably," and why you don't see very many individual or family farms anymore is for a myriad of reasons, every single one of them to do with incentives or disincentives placed by the government. First and foremost, when you have a government that taxes at exorbitant rates while taxing through inflation of the monetary supply (and the United States is taxed very, very heavily through this means), a society is not going to have the collective wealth to be able to lend to a farmer so he can increase his productivity so he can either sell more cheaply to more people, or sell at the same price and use the extra money to invest in a more sustainable or humane production process. Right now, in the situation that at least the United States (and much of Europe) have put themselves in, because of the insanely high level of taxation (federal corporate tax rate in the US is already 35%), regulation, the ethanol boondoggle and farm subsidies, the only people that can afford to farm are the giant corporate entities that can clamor for the subsidies the fastest, and they're the ones that get complained about by your counterparts in government. But it is the people of the very same vein that brought this situation about.
So it's all the fault of the government, as in nearly every bad aspect of society. I'm not altogether informed about your other political views, but someone like Nailec would (unintentionally of course, his heart's in the right place, but he lacks a fundamental understanding of free markets and economics as well as the law of unintended consequences) have us live in a society where we're all either clamoring to get our basic necessities, whether it be working far longer hours than in our current, pre-bond bubble society, or just having the government steal it from the rich. This is what is called a zero-sum society, and it's plaguing Europe very heavily at the moment, because the creation of wealth has taken a backseat to the redistribution of it, which is not sustainable by my definition of it. Unfortunately, that is the trend that we've been heading in for the last hundred years (the politics of envy infiltrating everywhere), and once the bond bubble pops in the US and we see hyperinflation, it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets any better. Sorry, sort of got off on a tangent there, but you see what I'm saying. Making society poorer, which is the only thing that centralized regulation and redistribution can do, will not help the animals or the environment. That's why I'm saying that statists and socialists have hijacked your cause, because that's the only kind of "solution" I hear from the environmental movement, and I get very incensed because I'm under the impression that history has proven that statism and socialism do not work and are immoral to an extreme degree. The only way we're going to be able to afford to treat the animals in a more humane manner is through progress in society, and nothing ceases that process like socialism, statism, Democrats and Liberal Republicans. Did you watch that video I posted? If my arguments are unclear still, he addresses a lot of them within it.
And let me clear up again for anyone else that the government, when it's not SOLELY protecting private property rights, individual rights, and its country from outside force, is a burden (at best) on society. It's not as if there are two sectors with their own resources; the government sector can only remove resources from society and distribute them elsewhere, but it doesn't make society better off in the long run, because those distributions are inherently arbitrary. I'd gladly explain this concept in more detail if anyone wanted.
Quote from: alvarezbassist17 on May 07, 2010, 06:49 AMto be completely honest, the arguments are one of the only things that draw me to this section of the board anymore.
I couldn't agree more.
And this is vaguely related to the whole farming thing, have either of you seen DIRT! The Movie? It's a pretty interesting documentary on the de-evolution Earth's soil and the terrible, terrible things our farming processes do to it.
And I just wanted to say that while I agree that factory farmed meat is wrong, I don't believe that a handful of people saying "HEY MEAT INDUSTRY! You're doing it wrong so I am going to stop eating meat!" is going to change ANYTHING for the better. Vegetarians have existed FAR longer than factory farmed meat has and to think that going vegan or vegetarian will benefit anything other than your ego is pretty silly to me.
(http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx14/I_Am_Succubi/Freinds%20folly%20and%20alcohol/Entertainment/squizgar.jpg)
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on May 08, 2010, 01:26 AM
Quote from: alvarezbassist17 on May 07, 2010, 06:49 AMto be completely honest, the arguments are one of the only things that draw me to this section of the board anymore.
I couldn't agree more.
And this is vaguely related to the whole farming thing, have either of you seen DIRT! The Movie? It's a pretty interesting documentary on the de-evolution Earth's soil and the terrible, terrible things our farming processes do to it.
And I just wanted to say that while I agree that factory farmed meat is wrong, I don't believe that a handful of people saying "HEY MEAT INDUSTRY! You're doing it wrong so I am going to stop eating meat!" is going to change ANYTHING for the better. Vegetarians have existed FAR longer than factory farmed meat has and to think that going vegan or vegetarian will benefit anything other than your ego is pretty silly to me.
Word, I just don't see how people don't get that if farmers didn't have to give 30-50% of their income to the government that they would be able to afford to not fuck up the dirt or to be able to use more humane, environmentally friendly methods and still be able to stay in business and produce an affordable product.
Quote from: alvarezbassist17 on May 08, 2010, 10:01 PM
Quote from: Necrocetaceanbeastiality on May 08, 2010, 01:26 AM
Quote from: alvarezbassist17 on May 07, 2010, 06:49 AMto be completely honest, the arguments are one of the only things that draw me to this section of the board anymore.
I couldn't agree more.
And this is vaguely related to the whole farming thing, have either of you seen DIRT! The Movie? It's a pretty interesting documentary on the de-evolution Earth's soil and the terrible, terrible things our farming processes do to it.
And I just wanted to say that while I agree that factory farmed meat is wrong, I don't believe that a handful of people saying "HEY MEAT INDUSTRY! You're doing it wrong so I am going to stop eating meat!" is going to change ANYTHING for the better. Vegetarians have existed FAR longer than factory farmed meat has and to think that going vegan or vegetarian will benefit anything other than your ego is pretty silly to me.
Word, I just don't see how people don't get that if farmers didn't have to give 30-50% of their income to the government that they would be able to afford to not fuck up the dirt or to be able to use more humane, environmentally friendly methods and still be able to stay in business and produce an affordable product.
oh, mmm, yes, quite right.
bewbs
Quote from: momo on May 04, 2010, 08:11 AM
its been a while since ive been on but im not likin how this site is now back then ppl were actyally nice and chill now its filled with assholes.
y is it that ppl r bein mean to others this is supposed to bring us together because we all share somethin in common!
me and another member talked about this last night.
your grammar fucking sucks, dude.
Quote from: Now Im Nothing on May 09, 2010, 02:31 AM
Quote from: momo on May 04, 2010, 08:11 AM
its been a while since ive been on but im not likin how this site is now back then ppl were actyally nice and chill now its filled with assholes.
y is it that ppl r bein mean to others this is supposed to bring us together because we all share somethin in common!
me and another member talked about this last night.
your grammar fucking sucks, dude.
your point?
Quote from: derekautomatica on May 09, 2010, 02:40 AM
Quote from: Now Im Nothing on May 09, 2010, 02:31 AM
Quote from: momo on May 04, 2010, 08:11 AM
its been a while since ive been on but im not likin how this site is now back then ppl were actyally nice and chill now its filled with assholes.
y is it that ppl r bein mean to others this is supposed to bring us together because we all share somethin in common!
me and another member talked about this last night.
your grammar fucking sucks, dude.
your point?
he's right. it does suck.
I locked my keys in my car outside of an abortion clinic the other night. It turns out they get really pissed when you go in and ask them for a coat hanger.
corey, i'm sorry this took ages but they were not kidding when they said honours year was HARD AS AN ERECT PENIS!
what i meant by sustainability is the coldly compelling rationale that the meat and dairy industries are the single biggest contributors to global warming worldwide. this, unlike many of the chemicals needed for production and transportation, such as gasoline, is quite unnecessary pollution. let's look at your country, in the united states, this is pollution produced so that americans can get cheap meat in large quantities – amounts consumed per person far above what americans consumed fifty or one-hundred years ago. so on both philosophical and realistic environmental counts (add to global warming the disastrous ecological consequences of trawling for sea life such as shrimp), there are strong, clear arguments that the current factory farming system is profoundly unsustainable. it takes between 6 and 26 calories of food input to get one calorie of meat from an animal. it's very inefficient, it's extremely wasteful and it's a very expensive way to make food.
vegetarianism is the only practical and philosophically satisfying means to influence the cruel, environmentally catastrophic industries of factory meat and dairy, and large-scale fishing. this is risky because only 3.2% of american adults are vegetarian, and even if a bigger percentage of americans are ambivalent about eating meat, for many it would be uncomfortable to be told that they need to make the step to completely stop eating meat. i know for omnivores reading this that the following statement is a provocation: eating meat is unethical and unsustainable. the excuses for eating factory produced meat are almost entirely disconnected from need. no one needs to eat meat. a vegetarian diet is often healthier, and – despite how cheap meat has become – still less expensive. and it isn't cruel. and it isn't contributing to global warming. and it isn't making us fat. but listen here, i'm not being biased entirely, i understand that a vegetarian diet is inconvenient. like other inconvenient environmental truths, the unsustainability of factory meat needs to be discussed and acted upon.
one of the big problems is that americans decided they wanted to eat more meat than any other culture in history and pay historically little for it. to achieve that dream they abandoned the ethical farmers dream farm and signed on with smithfield (the largest pork supplier in america) allowing (or causing) husbandry to leave the hands of farmers and become determined by corporations that positively strove (and continue to strive) to pass their costs on to the public. with consumers oblivious or forgetful or, worse, supportive, corporations like smithfield concentrated animals in absurd densities. in that context , a farmer can't grow nearly enough feed on his own land and must import it (which pushes up the cost). smithfields earnings in 2007 was $12 billion. we must look at the scale of the costs they externalise: the pollution (the amount of faeces they produce is as much fecal waste as the entire human population of the states of california and texas combined), and also the illnesses caused by that pollution and the associated degradation of property values. without passing these and other burdens on to the public, smithfield would not be able to produce the cheap meat it does without going bankrupt. as with all factory farms, the illusion of their profitability and "efficiency" is maintained by the immense sweep of its plunders.
i do see what you are saying and you are very well informed (and i'm learning a lot of stuff ). i think it would be great if we had a global conversation - that included people from the factory farming industry, and included veterinarians and included environmentalists, included philosophers and included all of us - and we made it very open, very transparent. if we open the doors to these farms and we simply said "does what we get justify the means and what we lose? and i'm convinced that most people, if they had a direct line of access to this information, would say "no, what we are getting does not justify what we are losing".
i think change needs to come from the government so that we don't need to clamour to get our basic necessities. our present way of eating - the dollars we daily feed to the likes of smithfield and other factory farms - rewards the worst conceivable practices. we need to eat less meat. it's what everybody says. it's what every environmentalist now says. greenpeace doesn't even serve meat at its functions anymore, not for reasons of animal welfare but environment reasons. the problem is not that anyone needs to find new values, it's that we need a clear line of sight to the process that brings us our food. that's my tangent. i don't know if i answered or addressed your questions. i am extremely exhausted right now but you have some good points and i am going to watch that video now. sleeping is so overrated.
Oh my christ, it's a fucking novella.
In short, tl;dr
Blixa do you copy and paste from online journals or stuff? that must have taken ages, props for having the effort
Quote from: blixa on May 16, 2010, 03:09 PM
corey, i'm sorry this took ages but they were not kidding when they said honours year was HARD AS AN ERECT PENIS!
what i meant by sustainability is the coldly compelling rationale that the meat and dairy industries are the single biggest contributors to global warming worldwide. this, unlike many of the chemicals needed for production and transportation, such as gasoline, is quite unnecessary pollution. let's look at your country, in the united states, this is pollution produced so that americans can get cheap meat in large quantities – amounts consumed per person far above what americans consumed fifty or one-hundred years ago. so on both philosophical and realistic environmental counts (add to global warming the disastrous ecological consequences of trawling for sea life such as shrimp), there are strong, clear arguments that the current factory farming system is profoundly unsustainable. it takes between 6 and 26 calories of food input to get one calorie of meat from an animal. it's very inefficient, it's extremely wasteful and it's a very expensive way to make food.
vegetarianism is the only practical and philosophically satisfying means to influence the cruel, environmentally catastrophic industries of factory meat and dairy, and large-scale fishing. this is risky because only 3.2% of american adults are vegetarian, and even if a bigger percentage of americans are ambivalent about eating meat, for many it would be uncomfortable to be told that they need to make the step to completely stop eating meat. i know for omnivores reading this that the following statement is a provocation: eating meat is unethical and unsustainable. the excuses for eating factory produced meat are almost entirely disconnected from need. no one needs to eat meat. a vegetarian diet is often healthier, and – despite how cheap meat has become – still less expensive. and it isn't cruel. and it isn't contributing to global warming. and it isn't making us fat. but listen here, i'm not being biased entirely, i understand that a vegetarian diet is inconvenient. like other inconvenient environmental truths, the unsustainability of factory meat needs to be discussed and acted upon.
one of the big problems is that americans decided they wanted to eat more meat than any other culture in history and pay historically little for it. to achieve that dream they abandoned the ethical farmers dream farm and signed on with smithfield (the largest pork supplier in america) allowing (or causing) husbandry to leave the hands of farmers and become determined by corporations that positively strove (and continue to strive) to pass their costs on to the public. with consumers oblivious or forgetful or, worse, supportive, corporations like smithfield concentrated animals in absurd densities. in that context , a farmer can't grow nearly enough feed on his own land and must import it (which pushes up the cost). smithfields earnings in 2007 was $12 billion. we must look at the scale of the costs they externalise: the pollution (the amount of faeces they produce is as much fecal waste as the entire human population of the states of california and texas combined), and also the illnesses caused by that pollution and the associated degradation of property values. without passing these and other burdens on to the public, smithfield would not be able to produce the cheap meat it does without going bankrupt. as with all factory farms, the illusion of their profitability and "efficiency" is maintained by the immense sweep of its plunders.
i do see what you are saying and you are very well informed (and i'm learning a lot of stuff ). i think it would be great if we had a global conversation - that included people from the factory farming industry, and included veterinarians and included environmentalists, included philosophers and included all of us - and we made it very open, very transparent. if we open the doors to these farms and we simply said "does what we get justify the means and what we lose? and i'm convinced that most people, if they had a direct line of access to this information, would say "no, what we are getting does not justify what we are losing".
i think change needs to come from the government so that we don't need to clamour to get our basic necessities. our present way of eating - the dollars we daily feed to the likes of smithfield and other factory farms - rewards the worst conceivable practices. we need to eat less meat. it's what everybody says. it's what every environmentalist now says. greenpeace doesn't even serve meat at its functions anymore, not for reasons of animal welfare but environment reasons. the problem is not that anyone needs to find new values, it's that we need a clear line of sight to the process that brings us our food. that's my tangent. i don't know if i answered or addressed your questions. i am extremely exhausted right now but you have some good points and i am going to watch that video now. sleeping is so overrated.
I'll have more time to respond later, but I did want to make a few quick points.
1. Man-made climate change/global warming is not real. Let's get that straight from the get go. It's complete politicized garbage passed as an excuse for science, and the policies that have been derived from it are going to have no effect but to impoverish our global society. I could go on about this at length, and have, but I'm against using anything but the courts to adjudicate environmental and pollution disputes. That does NOT mean I'm for pollution, but rather that I'm for people taking infringements on their property by pollution to the court rather than having some overarching bureau regulating society in the most politically correct manner. You have to take history into account: during the Industrial Revolution, the leftists took away power from the US (and quite probably other country's) courts to adjudicate these disputes in the name of the "public good," which in that time meant that manufacturing was good for society and could infringe/pollute on people's property in pursuit of this public good. So as of that time, and in our current state, with our current laws and socialized waste management, people and companies are not being held completely liable for what they pollute (mind you, I am NOT NOT NOT talking about carbon dioxide, I'm talking about particulate matter and real, genuine pollution and dumping) and are not paying the correct market costs to dispose of pollutants and garbage. So it's that previous intervention that needs to be corrected, not more government regulation and intervention on top of it.
2. I also think most of the things you are illustrating are bad, but you just have to look at how the situation came about. Because of government policy for years on end, it is now less expensive/convenient for people to hit up the dollar menu at McDonald's than to go to the farmer's market. This is completely incongruous because it makes more sense that it should be cheaper to buy locally rather than have everything shipped in. This is because of central farm regulation, and farm subsidies, specifically ethanol subsidies. Farmers get subsidies to produce corn for ethanol rather than producing other food. This and other farm policies have caused the pricing system to go completely haywire, and now we are forced to rely on these corporations that have the ability to cut costs in the many ways you have described in order to eat food in the way we desire. So essentially, if you really want to make these options you speak of sustainable and viable, you have to make them cheap, which they would be anyways if our global farm system wasn't so fucked up because of what I just described.