Hi guys. This is my first post here. I discovered Deftones after re-evaluating the nu metal scene.
I understand many would feel uncomfortable putting the band amongst the other artists from that time. But I don't
want to get too far into that. I have to say, I respect the band a lot for emerging from that time period with ideas and daring
artistry that many of their peers did not have.
I have just written a review of White Pony (and it's relationship to nu-metal) on my blog if you are interested....
Here is the first part
'There is kind of a fence between nu-metal and metal with metal fans mostly hating the nu version. And this White Pony LP seems to be one that jumps over said proverbial fence, as the band has been put in both categories and beyond with music nerds, snobs and critics also accepting the band into their ranks of favourite bands. I’ve heard White Pony called the OK Computer of metal. Let’s take a listen and see whether it’s deserving of that title.'
http://boxmanchronicles.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/deftones-white-pony/ (http://boxmanchronicles.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/deftones-white-pony/)
I look forward posting more here. But what do you guys think? Were Deftones ever nu metal? Do you feel uncomfortable with their associations with other bands of that time? And do Deftones have any rivals as far as artistic credibility is concerned with their brand of music?
Box
I think Adrenaline is the only album that could be called nu-metal, Chino was still doing the whole rap thing and there was alot of nu metal traits present, saying that though even in that earliest stages there were signs of who they would became, songs like fist showed that weren't just another metal band, I think Around the Fur wasn't musically even a nu-metal album but more alt metal but I don't think this change was drastic enough to detach themselves from the initial nu-metal branding they had, that and the fact they seemed to be performing with bands like korn and limp bizkit all the time who were the mascots of the genre, So i think that's when they made an effort to me to fully clear the assosciation with White Pony, to me they weren't nu-metal after Around the Fur but it just took something really different from nu-metal like White Pony to fully cut the ties.
Good points. I haven't heard Adrenaline yet. The only track on white pony that fits nu-metal sound wise is maybe Back To School (in that sense that it's rap rock). I read that they only made that due to label pressure. I think the wider point you make is true, they're more nu metal by association than by their music. Nu metal is a weirdly fluid genre in any case when you think about it. There's the more industrial bands/the rap rock hip hop oriented ones/the post grunge sound also all lumped together.
1. Back To School
So apparently the label forced them to make this track so they had at least one for the radio or something. And the band just went along with the demands and put it out in a day. Looking at it through that lens it seems a bit of a contrived attempt to appeal to angsty teens.
Now we're on the next page
It's time to close the book up!
In a way the serious singing with lines like that is a bit jarring. It's a decent song with a great hook, also like the post chorus. Can't help but think of the Nirvana song thematically speaking too though, yr in highschool agaiiiin. And I like that song a lot more.
2. Feiticeira
Guitars create this wall of sound here and tonally this isn't nu-metal at all. No rapping, not even really any screaming.
3. Digital Bath
Has this depressing sombre atmosphere. Nu-metal was mostly tense and aggressive but these emotions seem searching deeper, beyond the anger. Some haunting atmospherics and yeah, just a tastefulness to this stuff. Can definitley understand why Radiohead fans would also be fans of this, they have that sort of soaring melancholia thing down to a tee. And hearing the calm vocal inflections over this heavy sound is goosebump inducing. Also, the guitars create textures rather than mere boneheaded riffs. Grandiose.
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First three track review.
I think why a lot of people call White Pony a masterpiece is because of the "feel" (production) of the album. From its peers, it stands out, lightyears ahead. It feels like there is a story to the album. It's just SOUNDS like nighttime, sex, anger, innocence, and mystery. Just like Kid A...it sounds like it came from a different planet.
It was a time and a place in which White Pony stood out. They pushed themselves to sound different and it worked.
Quote from: Jerry_Curls on Sep 17, 2013, 07:03 AM
I think why a lot of people call White Pony a masterpiece is because of the "feel" (production) of the album. From its peers, it stands out, lightyears ahead. It feels like there is a story to the album. It's just SOUNDS like nighttime, sex, anger, innocence, and mystery. Just like Kid A...it sounds like it came from a different planet.
It was a time and a place in which White Pony stood out. They pushed themselves to sound different and it worked.
Very true I know the term Timeless is thrown around alot but White Pony is one of those truly timeless albums, the style of the music is not like that of any past or current time it's completely dettached from any trends and it makes it amazing, it still sounds so fresh to me now I remember when I first heard Change on the radio and it geniune shocked me I didn't know music could give you shivers down you spine like that, I that time I was mostly listening to Metallica and the likes, I immediately stopped what I was doing to find out who the song was by and spent the night listening to white pony over an over opened me up to a whole new side of music, it showed me music is more than entertainment it made me feel emotions, after that the aggresion in the songs I thought were emotive before, stuff like SOAD sounded false and flat, a remember hearing elite and going this is pretty good but than that opening beat of Digital Bath came in and sat in awe I had never heard a song with such atmosphere all the little water sounds gave my shivers after that there was no turning back.
the term of new metal is literally to called the new generation of metal around 1990s, since the old metal was old fashioned, the new metal atract more fans because its 'new'. so, basically anything that "new" in the 90s era could be called nu metal, incubus, deftones, korn, soad, etc. BUT i think these bands never meant to called themself nu metal band, its the media who addressed t these bands. while these bands got really big hype, comes the "copycat" bands who wants to jumps in and enjoying the nu metal success, such as, linkin park, crazy town, adema, and other shitty music. thats a numetal band.
and for my opinion?
Deftones is not a nu metal band since the BEGINNING.
I wouldn't classify any of their stuff as nu-metal. "Metal" to me is something that is heavy for heavyness' sake. The Deftones were never really like that and the influences they had brought a diversity that all those other band lacked. Moreover, Adrenaline carries more in common with post-hardcore stuff like Quicksand, Jawbox, or Fugazi than it does with anything "metal". Same thing with ATF, it's Helmet influence is the most obvious thing. The thing is with the Deftones is that they came out at the same time as when nu-metal got popular and got unfairly lumped in with them. All those bands worshiping the Deftones and shamelessly trying to ape their style (poorly) didn't help either.
always was and will be alternativemetal for me
The was a sweet spot just before Nu-Metal was coined and it was just basically Alternative Metal. I can't remember exactly but I reckon it was between 94-97 where certain bands were around but not yet caught up in the mainstream shit.
nu metal? never, not even Adrenaline. it was because they were apart of the new crop of metal music and best friends with KoRn and all the rest of the bands that would rip of chino's stage presence and style.
I remember hearing every song they ever did before Adrenaline ("Gift" comes to mind) and going wow, Adrenaline was lacking melodically compared to what they were doing for 6 years before. yes Adrenaline was aggressive but more so in a hardcore punk way rather than a nasty knucklehead metal way.
Around The Fur was like Richie valens meets anthrax, really. Beautiful melody along with beautiful Metallic Marshall tones and crisp production. I mean was headup a rap song? not really, any rock band that plays really fast comes off rapping vocally because of the tempo.
White Pony, wow the brilliance here to completely take a risk and make a mockery of nu metal and heavy music in general. Chino's smiths/cure/Depeche mode/duran duran influences in full effect on this album, and that's really the way I've always seen this band, and if you've heard everything pre Adrenaline it's what they were always about, it's just that they are a traditional 3 piece band so the big sounds ultimately come from the guitar. the heavy metal "wall of sound" except with Stephen putting up Melodic Dissonance and Brilliance rather than Heavy Metal "predictable pummeling."
Nu metal, no never. more like loveless meets Marley meets the brains.
I never said that I thought Deftones fit the blueprint of nu metal. In fact, I agree that they are more nu metal by association by than their music. However, it'd be strange to deny that tracks like Headup or Back to School or 7 words did not have elements of the genre. If you're going to argue that it's just heavy metal with fast singing, well that could be said for other bands in the scene too like Korn and Papa Roach for example. Nu metal wasn't a genre of soundalike bands. It combined many disparate genres, and like most labels it was more a term used to make headlines and categorise things in order to sell them.
It's always been that way, I mean if you take hardcore music in the 80s and think of some of the bands who toured with Black Flag that weren't really hardcore at all yet were still lumped together. A genre is just a name to label things and it's not always accurate. I'm interested in Deftones' role as part of this scene, and actually the way they evade easy categorisation is what makes them such an interesting band.
I think Chino has even said he was forced to write Back to School to fit into the burgeoning nu metal scene of the time and get on the radio. So you can see that was a pressure they faced albeit not by choice.
Anyway, this is the rest of my review....
4. Elite
Ah this is more of a riff driven track, more aggressive. Some tasteful use of warbly vocoder on the vocals. Lyrics detailing depression and things. Breaks up the album a bit after two murky gloomy numbers but I otherwise find it a bit over repetitive for the length of the song. It might have worked better as a 2 minute short track.
The production is effective for the atmospheric tracks but on a rocker like this, there's no bounce, the guitars have a great crunching sound but it'd be better if it sounded less clean and rawer. dirtier!
5. RX Queen
This track seems distorted in a really cool way. And the drums have this tribal feel, almost a jungle sound with the snare. Another searing hook on this track. This would be perfect for a slow motion scene in a TV show with a guy running in the rain or something. Maybe like a season ender where he's running after the girl when she's leaving for law school but it's too late or something. The breakdown has these weird pitched noises, kind of alien sounding. Another melodic track.
6. Street Carp
Another more conventional riff. I'm digging singers voice and the less idiotic lyrics give this more artistic authenticity. Like if this was Slipknot the address referred to would HAVE to be 666 something. Quite overbearing doom with the guitar sound and voice being similar on most of the tracks.
7.Teenager
Appreciate an instrumentation change up because the album was becoming a bit of a relentless dirge. This one is straight up pleasant with a chilled riff surrounded by electronic atmospherics and glitchy effects. What really comes to mind here is the reason why nu-metal basically failed. Bands were unwilling to develop, in fact a lot of them regressed or went into even more commercial sounds as they went on. The reason why Deftones are almost the only remaining band with artistic credibility is because they were willing to push themselves as artists to re-invent themselves in some way.
8. Knife Party
Promising riff. I felt like previously the album went like atmospheric song/rocker/something else/rocker. But this one has a bit of everything. I have a penchant for call and response vocals so that GO GET YOUR KNIFE really appeals to me.
I could float here forever.
The introduction of a wailing woman came as a surprise but it works, the womans wails get more and more haunted as it goes on.
Seems to be the track that combines all their best elements together atmospherics, avant tendencies, rock riffs and hooks all meshing and I gotta say this one gives me the chills.
9. Korea
This title? And they titled that other album in Japanese? Guess there were a few Asians in the band. There's so little screaming on this thing it's always great to have an old fashioned throat destroying chorus, and during the second part of the song the vocal destruction is killer. Songwise this is one of the most conventional. I find these conventional rockers a bit troubling in the context of this LP. The production of it with all these layers and murkyness make them hard to enjoy as punky screamy headbangers, yet they're clearly less interesting musically than the rest of the album.
10. Passenger
Weird sounds on this. Aliens coming! There's two singers on this and one of them sounds like the Tool guy. IS Maynard James Keenan
This track almost reminds me of Fugazi or something, the way it builds crumbles back down again. For me this is a bit too overbearing and wrought though.
11. Changes (in the house of Flies)
Sounding good so far. Has these really eerie backing sounds, more soaring vocals.
I watched you change to a fly
David Cronenberg reference? Probably not. There's so much power to these soaring vocals over the heavy sound, and I'm someone who in general loves aggressive screaming in nu-metal but this is effective in a a different way.
12. Pink Maggit.
Last track is the longest, baby I know! This is mega slowed down sad depressing music. Sad bastard music right here. No, just kidding, but you would NOT put this on a Monday morning mix. It's cool though, can imagine a good video for this like a slightly darker black and white version of the Christina Aguilera Beautiful video with a load of messed up young people looking in the mirror. Actually I shouldn't make light of it so, it has this genuinely heartfelt sound and chilling atmosphere. Now a reprise of the track from the beginning of the album. Such a simple trick, I love when bands do this. And then it all slows down.
Overall, this was a really solid LP with atmospheric guitars, some brilliant hooks and experimental tendencies. My favorite tracks were Knife Party, Digital Bath and RX Queen, where these disparate elements came together to create this monolithic emotive avant metal sound. I would have liked more examples of the sonic diversity highlighted on a track like teenager. Also, there are a few tracks that are sub-par compared to the albums best moments, mostly the rockers which are necessary for the albums flow but the production didn't work on them for me. That's just my opinion. However, it's a great LP I really respect their evolution of traditional nu-metal.
As much as I love parts of this LP and respect it as an artistic statement, I don't quite see it as the masterpiece others do, becuase I think there are a few weaker tracks on this LP and songs which don't live up to its finest moments.
Give this one 4/5
Quote from: BoxMan on Sep 18, 2013, 04:17 AM
I never said that I thought Deftones fit the blueprint of nu metal. In fact, I agree that they are more nu metal by association by than their music. However, it'd be strange to deny that tracks like Headup or Back to School or 7 words did not have elements of the genre. If you're going to argue that it's just heavy metal with fast singing, well that could be said for other bands in the scene too like Korn and Papa Roach for example. Nu metal wasn't a genre of soundalike bands. It combined many disparate genres, and like most labels it was more a term used to make headlines and categorise things in order to sell them.
It's always been that way, I mean if you take hardcore music in the 80s and think of some of the bands who toured with Black Flag that weren't really hardcore at all yet were still lumped together. A genre is just a name to label things and it's not always accurate. I'm interested in Deftones' role as part of this scene, and actually the way they evade easy categorisation is what makes them such an interesting band.
I think Chino has even said he was forced to write Back to School to fit into the burgeoning nu metal scene of the time and get on the radio. So you can see that was a pressure they faced albeit not by choice.
Ya its fine, I respect your opinion, but 3 songs isn't really a mark to be called into anyone's genre for any group.
nu metal songs: 7 words, engine no.9, lotion(though I'd hate to give this classical chorus up to that genre), headup, and back to school which I downloaded under the title mini maggit on napster before the album came out. it was like 4 min until they sped it up a bit and re recorded it for the October re release.
I also want to say thank you for bringing this topic up and thread because it's cool, and you write cool stuff, so big ups.
Cheers man. I have no hard feelings the other way ever. I just like thinking about music.
I have just written a review of Around The Fur which I actually like more than White Pony :-X
Check it out here:
http://boxmanchronicles.wordpress.com/2013/09/18/deftones-around-the-fur/ (http://boxmanchronicles.wordpress.com/2013/09/18/deftones-around-the-fur/)
That was cool...you need to come here more times.
Quote from: Jerry_Curls on Sep 17, 2013, 07:03 AM
I think why a lot of people call White Pony a masterpiece is because of the "feel" (production) of the album. From its peers, it stands out, lightyears ahead. It feels like there is a story to the album. It's just SOUNDS like nighttime, sex, anger, innocence, and mystery. Just like Kid A...it sounds like it came from a different planet.
It was a time and a place in which White Pony stood out. They pushed themselves to sound different and it worked.
I agree with you that White Pony is their Kid A. But I do not believe context is what makes the album a classic. It's a simply amazing on its own. It doesn't matter when the songs would've come out, or who they were competing with - it wouldn't change the tenor of the album. So, in my opinion, while the success of White Pony may have had something to do with the left-field approach, the songs stand on their own and it is an objectively phenomenal piece of work.
Kid A? ok you can say that.
I say it's their music for the masses.
Maybe Koi No Yokan is their Kid A, no?
Anyway I intend to do a review Adrenalin and it's relation to nu metal next. Love this band and this is a cool little community so I hope to post more thoughts on this band in general. I think Adrenalin is like their Pablo Honey to some people but to me it's more like Bleach, a band finding it's feet. It's a great great album.
Quote from: BoxMan on Sep 24, 2013, 01:37 AM
Maybe Koi No Yokan is their Kid A, no?
I logged in just to say "No" to that.
If we're going to make that comparison:
Adrenaline - Pablo Honey
Around the Fur - The Bends
White Pony - OK Computer
S/T - Amnesiac
Saturday Night Wrist - Hail to the Thief
Diamond Eyes - In Rainbows
Koi No Yokan - The King of Limbs
Eros - Kid A?
its kind of funny to hear someone review an album literally a decade after it came out and treat it like something new... when you think about how far music has come since then and (IMO) how much that album has influenced music... seriously, so many artists, both in the 'metal' scene and the alt rock scene have been pushed by that album, I think its hard to give it the proper respect it deserves but hey maybe I am just being a bit of a Deftones homer... I dont think the reviewer really 'got' the album from what I read, he was more interested in exploring what he envisioned could be the epitome of Nu-metal and I am still not 100% what Nu-Metal really is... the atmosphere and textures that are found on WP, can you find those on any of their contemporaries albums? Staind/SOAD/Korn? its almost laughable to compare... the others may have moments but its like one moment an Album while the Tones have multiple 'chills' like moments a song...
the whole nu-metal thing is really over-blown in my opinion, I mean does Nu-Metal really exist? it seems to me when people try and describe Nu-Metal mostly they end up describing Rap-Metal and I think there is a difference... Deftones and Tool will always stand alone to me, probably best described as Alt-Metal but really they are their own creatures
\OK my rants over...
I always thought of nu-metal is to metal what emo is to hardcore.
Emo sprung from the hardcore scene, taking it to a new direction and sound, but still had the foundation of hardcore/punk. Nu-metal does the same thing in the mid-90s. Adding electronics, turntables, having more emotion than the harsher sounds of metal. Going a new route, with the same foundation (distortion, shredding, screaming, etc).
Quote from: Bifrost on Oct 07, 2013, 08:08 PM
its kind of funny to hear someone review an album literally a decade after it came out and treat it like something new... when you think about how far music has come since then and (IMO) how much that album has influenced music... seriously, so many artists, both in the 'metal' scene and the alt rock scene have been pushed by that album, I think its hard to give it the proper respect it deserves but hey maybe I am just being a bit of a Deftones homer... I dont think the reviewer really 'got' the album from what I read, he was more interested in exploring what he envisioned could be the epitome of Nu-metal and I am still not 100% what Nu-Metal really is... the atmosphere and textures that are found on WP, can you find those on any of their contemporaries albums? Staind/SOAD/Korn? its almost laughable to compare... the others may have moments but its like one moment an Album while the Tones have multiple 'chills' like moments a song...
the whole nu-metal thing is really over-blown in my opinion, I mean does Nu-Metal really exist? it seems to me when people try and describe Nu-Metal mostly they end up describing Rap-Metal and I think there is a difference... Deftones and Tool will always stand alone to me, probably best described as Alt-Metal but really they are their own creatures
\OK my rants over...
yeah deftones and tool definitely stand on their own from that so called scene.
but I disagree with "how far music has come." all spectrum of the arts has absolutely disintegrated in this new decade ever since 2000, it actually started in the late 90's but there's still a few gems here and there since the turn of the century. far and few between. the movies, books, entertainment and music has been it's lowest and least creative and special, its overall been straight up weird. music has suffered the most. deftones is one of the only bands I like this century.
everything from '56 to '96 was gold in all genres of music, pure wealth of inspiration.
when I say how far music has come, I mean in terms of evolution, no one can argue that music has changed, but I dont necessarily mean in terms of a positive progression... but of course taste is subjective