Gore

[O]

Well you should have known it's still the same old song

[Inkblades]

The songwriting just wasn't there on Gore. KNY was massively ambitious and progressive for the band with all of the intros/outros, fully formed songs, and varied structures, styles, and techniques. KNY was the closest thing they've done to a progressive concept album since WP, the album flowed and was expansive. Gore largely retreated on the intros/outros making it feel like a step backward. The only thing it really added to their sound was an 80's rock/metal flair on certain songs, that just wasn't that exciting for the most part. That said, Chino's vocals and Sergio's bass really shine on Gore. The shitty production certainly didn't help matters, but Gore wouldn't have been stellar even with good production. Hopefully, they're more inspired and ambitious on the next one.

Massively ambitious? Let's not go that far. The intros on Leathers and Goon Squad are cool, but the intro on Hearts/Wires is probably more progressive than any intro on KNY. Songwriting on KNY isn't that strong, anyway. Romantic Dreams and WHTY? are just trite, if anything. Tempest is an interesting but ultimately failed experiment that doesn't really gel together. Some good lyrics, though. Entombed has the worst bridge in Deftones history. Poltergeist is good, but would be better if Chino's screams were stronger on it. Graphic Nature is the type of song you think you enjoy while listening to it, but then immediately forget about once its over. Gauze has a fucking awesome vocal performance (that chorus, tho) but needs better riffs. Goon Squad is fun until its chorus gets repetitive. And now that I think about it, that intro really does not fit well with the rest of the song. Swerve is pretty good for a song that sounds like its trying too hard to get radio play. Rosemary's good, but better live.

That leaves Leathers, which is the best song on the album. *runs away*

Interesting that you're coming around on Chino's Gore performance, though. So being that you don't like Gore, do you blame it on Steph then?

LOL @ considering KNY repetitive and trite when this board fawns over S/T which has the most songs that could be considered so. No one really comments on the fact that the songwriting was massively repetitive and not fully formed, with certain sounds being overused on S/T (I quantified this by comparing the song structures of Hexagram and WHTY?), instead focusing on how great the "dark" nature of the album is. People here are always saying how "poppy and upbeat" KNY is and how they want them to go back to the vibe of S/T. Honestly, I don't really care what kind of vibe the band is going for on any of their albums (their diversity of theme and sentiment is one of the reasons they're my favorite band) as long as the songwriting is good. Every song on KNY is good or great. Gore? You've got like only half the album living up to that standard.

Never really come around on anything the band does. My first impressions are pretty much how I feel from then on. When I first heard S/T I was severely disappointed with how lazy the songwriting was and how samey it sounded. Outside of a few songs (Anniversary and WGTB being legit highlights) that album just did not display what this band is capable of. Gore is the same way. I noticed how good Chino's vocal deliveries on the album were even with that initial shitty rip. When I got the actual album and was able to listen to it on a good sound system, you can hear how great Sergio's contributions were (I'm not as sentimental as most people on the board and can say that, despite how great of a guy Chi was, Sergio is clearly the better bass player).

I don't know what I would blame Gore's lackluster quality on. Part of me thinks it was the producer. It's been clear in the past that the band can become unmotivated quite easily and that they need a good producer to keep them in line. That said, they've created some of their best stuff and their worst stuff with the same producer (Terry Date). So, it's likely a combination of factors.

I disagree on "sounds" beings overused on S/T. Does Hexagram sound like WGTB? No. Does Deathblow sound like Bloody Cape? No. Does Minerva sound like Anniversary? No. Does Good Morning Beautiful sound like Battle-Axe? No. Does Needles & Pins sound like Lucky You? No. What you're confusing this with is the fact that S/T is a very cohesive album. Those 11 songs fit together beautifully, which I can't say for Koi.

I remember the Hexagram/WHTY? debate, which is honestly laughable. You're entitled to your opinion, I guess, but you are likely the only Deftones fan in the WORLD who thinks WHTY? is a better song than Hexagram. I also remember you admitting that Hexagram had awesome riffs, but since WHTY? had one more riff, it was better or something. I'll take two awesome riffs in a song over three boring, uninspired and toothless riffs in a song any day the week. That was my argument last time and I stick with it. Fuck, the riffs on S/T blow the riffs on KNY out of the water. Hell, the first minute and 10 seconds on Battle-Axe ALONE blows pretty much every riff on Koi out of the water.

And sure, not all of Koi is poppy. But Swerve City and Romantic Dreams back to back is a poppy ass way to start a record. And it sounds borderline schizophrenic because Leathers and Poltergeist sound so dark in comparison. It's why S/T flows better, because it's so much more tonally congruent. Koi suffers from SNW disease, where it feels like none of the songs fit together. This would have been a better way to open, I think:

1. Leathers
2. Swerve City
3. Poltergeist
4. Romantic Dreams

Push RD back as far as possible, because it's a boring, boring song. Bury it in the album, in other words.

Here's the bottom line: Koi is a stylish, well-produced album with memorable moments on almost every song, but it just lacks depth. It's all shallow surfaces. S/T, on the other hand, is an album to get lost in.

And don't get it twisted: I don't want them go back to the S/T vibe. I don't want them to repeat themselves - and, to their immense credit, they never have. Every album is wholly unique. But I also don't want them to chase after radio hits, which is what I think they did on some of the DE and KNY singles.

[nicklav]

The songwriting just wasn't there on Gore. KNY was massively ambitious and progressive for the band with all of the intros/outros, fully formed songs, and varied structures, styles, and techniques. KNY was the closest thing they've done to a progressive concept album since WP, the album flowed and was expansive. Gore largely retreated on the intros/outros making it feel like a step backward. The only thing it really added to their sound was an 80's rock/metal flair on certain songs, that just wasn't that exciting for the most part. That said, Chino's vocals and Sergio's bass really shine on Gore. The shitty production certainly didn't help matters, but Gore wouldn't have been stellar even with good production. Hopefully, they're more inspired and ambitious on the next one.

Massively ambitious? Let's not go that far. The intros on Leathers and Goon Squad are cool, but the intro on Hearts/Wires is probably more progressive than any intro on KNY. Songwriting on KNY isn't that strong, anyway. Romantic Dreams and WHTY? are just trite, if anything. Tempest is an interesting but ultimately failed experiment that doesn't really gel together. Some good lyrics, though. Entombed has the worst bridge in Deftones history. Poltergeist is good, but would be better if Chino's screams were stronger on it. Graphic Nature is the type of song you think you enjoy while listening to it, but then immediately forget about once its over. Gauze has a fucking awesome vocal performance (that chorus, tho) but needs better riffs. Goon Squad is fun until its chorus gets repetitive. And now that I think about it, that intro really does not fit well with the rest of the song. Swerve is pretty good for a song that sounds like its trying too hard to get radio play. Rosemary's good, but better live.

That leaves Leathers, which is the best song on the album. *runs away*

Interesting that you're coming around on Chino's Gore performance, though. So being that you don't like Gore, do you blame it on Steph then?

LOL @ considering KNY repetitive and trite when this board fawns over S/T which has the most songs that could be considered so. No one really comments on the fact that the songwriting was massively repetitive and not fully formed, with certain sounds being overused on S/T (I quantified this by comparing the song structures of Hexagram and WHTY?), instead focusing on how great the "dark" nature of the album is. People here are always saying how "poppy and upbeat" KNY is and how they want them to go back to the vibe of S/T. Honestly, I don't really care what kind of vibe the band is going for on any of their albums (their diversity of theme and sentiment is one of the reasons they're my favorite band) as long as the songwriting is good. Every song on KNY is good or great. Gore? You've got like only half the album living up to that standard.

Never really come around on anything the band does. My first impressions are pretty much how I feel from then on. When I first heard S/T I was severely disappointed with how lazy the songwriting was and how samey it sounded. Outside of a few songs (Anniversary and WGTB being legit highlights) that album just did not display what this band is capable of. Gore is the same way. I noticed how good Chino's vocal deliveries on the album were even with that initial shitty rip. When I got the actual album and was able to listen to it on a good sound system, you can hear how great Sergio's contributions were (I'm not as sentimental as most people on the board and can say that, despite how great of a guy Chi was, Sergio is clearly the better bass player).

I don't know what I would blame Gore's lackluster quality on. Part of me thinks it was the producer. It's been clear in the past that the band can become unmotivated quite easily and that they need a good producer to keep them in line. That said, they've created some of their best stuff and their worst stuff with the same producer (Terry Date). So, it's likely a combination of factors.

Hell, the first minute and 10 seconds on Battle-Axe ALONE blows pretty much every riff on Koi out of the water.

Truth. I never really thought about it until you said it but damn it's true.

[defTHE1s]

Hell, the first minute and 10 seconds on Battle-Axe ALONE blows pretty much every riff on Koi out of the water.

Truth. I never really thought about it until you said it but damn it's true.

[Red Pill]

Gore and s/t sucks tho

[Inkblades]

If I had to choose between S/T and your life, I'd choose S/T every time.

[Red Pill]

If I had to choose between S/T and your life, I'd choose S/T every time.

f I had to choose between a rock and your life, I'd choose a rock every time.

[Inkblades]

That's obvious. You clearly smoke a lot of crack rocks.

[illthrowROCKS@U]

If I had to choose between S/T and your life, I'd choose S/T every time.

[BewareTheWater]

If I had to choose between S/T and your life, I'd choose S/T every time.

f I had to choose between a rock and your life, I'd choose a rock every time.

That's obvious. You clearly smoke a lot of crack rocks.

This is beautiful...

[snw9]

If I had to choose between S/T and your life, I'd choose S/T every time.

f I had to choose between a rock and your life, I'd choose a rock every time.

That's obvious. You clearly smoke a lot of crack rocks.

This is beautiful...

Inkblades, talk about hitting a new low hahahahahha

[Crazylegs]

[Red Pill]

If I had to choose between S/T and your life, I'd choose S/T every time.

f I had to choose between a rock and your life, I'd choose a rock every time.

That's obvious. You clearly smoke a lot of crack rocks.

This is beautiful...

Inkblades, talk about hitting a new low hahahahahha

You are delusional ... That phrase is overused just like your mom vagina...

[Bifrost]

It's crazy how polarizing Gore has been, even a year later folks are still pretty heated over it.

Every Deftones release has been met with equal amounts of fans nostalgic for an older sound and those stoked about just getting new 'deftones music' but for the first time to me (as a long time fan) Gore seems lean a little more towards the disappointed side.

What do you guys think, am I right that the general consensus has been that Gore is a disappointment or is like past albums with equal parts hate for it and love for it?

[LG95]

I think what you're saying is partly true and partly false. If you looked at the sales and the reviews and, more relevantly, if you polled every Deftones fan (not just the morons on reddit) the overall reception would almost certainly be positive (which is the case for every Deftones album and fucking rightly so). This is nowhere near, for example, the recent case of Suicide Silence. I honestly don't even think it's arguable that the majority of Deftones fans like Gore.

The difference between Gore and the rest of their discography is that a) there has been more negativity, and b) this negativity has been more aggressive. Because of the way the internet is, all it takes is for you to read a few people being aggressive towards it and suddenly it seems like the overall reception is one of disappointment, which it wasn't and isn't, by and large. At the other end, unlike Diamond Eyes and Koi No Yokan (as the recent examples), the praise Gore has received hasn't been as emphatic - I mean, how many people have you heard/read say that Gore is the best or even in the top three Deftones albums? That was the sort of praise some were giving DE and KNY. Even those who really like Gore (including me) aren't giving it that sort of praise. That means the negativity has more impact, because you're less likely to praise or even defend something vociferously if you 'merely' like it, rather than love it. If someone says White Pony's shit, I respond every time - I can't help myself. If someone says Gore's shit, I think they're talking bollocks but I'm not as bothered about defending it because I don't have anywhere near the attachment to it that I have with White Pony.

I reckon if you polled every genuine Deftones fan, I think you'd find that a majority enjoy it, a minority love it and a minority dislike/hate it.

[ANattyRat]

It's crazy how polarizing Gore has been, even a year later folks are still pretty heated over it.

Every Deftones release has been met with equal amounts of fans nostalgic for an older sound and those stoked about just getting new 'deftones music' but for the first time to me (as a long time fan) Gore seems lean a little more towards the disappointed side.

What do you guys think, am I right that the general consensus has been that Gore is a disappointment or is like past albums with equal parts hate for it and love for it?

I think most people like it. I'd say it's definitely the best album out of the three since Sergio came in. By which I don't just mean my opinion, I mean in terms of hardcore fans, new fans, critics, etc. Diamond Eyes and Koi No Yokan got mostly good reviews as far as I recall, but the reviews for Gore seemed to blow them out of the water.

As an album from a band many people love, it's definitely got a lot of differing opinions, as all of their albums basically do. But I have definitely seen more positive comments than negative. Especially for the music itself. A lot of people's main criticism is the production of the music interfering in their feelings towards the music, so although of course some fans dislike the album or feel it could be better, or even hate it...I do think more people, at the very least, have overall positive feelings towards it.

[ANattyRat]

At the other end, unlike Diamond Eyes and Koi No Yokan (as the recent examples), the praise Gore has received hasn't been as emphatic - I mean, how many people have you heard/read say that Gore is the best or even in the top three Deftones albums? That was the sort of praise some were giving DE and KNY. Even those who really like Gore (including me) aren't giving it that sort of praise. That means the negativity has more impact, because you're less likely to praise or even defend something vociferously if you 'merely' like it, rather than love it. If someone says White Pony's shit, I respond every time - I can't help myself. If someone says Gore's shit, I think they're talking bollocks but I'm not as bothered about defending it because I don't have anywhere near the attachment to it that I have with White Pony..

I've found the opposite in terms of reviews and praise. The comments people gave Gore always seemed so much better than Diamond Eyes and Koi No Yokan, but maybe that's just a lack of remembering the details of those albums' reviews. But for me, it actually is in my top three. It's behind White Pony and ST, so although I'm no doubt in the minority, people like myself who do really love the album exist for sure. I don't even remember many people saying that Diamond Eyes or Koi No Yokan were in their top three, a lot of it was down to hype. I remember so many people absolutely adoring those albums, especially Diamond Eyes, and over time their love for it just kind of faded. Very few people have anything other then ATF to SNW as their top three, as far as I've noticed, haha. But again, on the Internet it's definitely easy to see some comments and assume it's the majority opinion.

[illthrowROCKS@U]

I think what you're saying is partly true and partly false. If you looked at the sales and the reviews and, more relevantly, if you polled every Deftones fan (not just the morons on reddit) the overall reception would almost certainly be positive (which is the case for every Deftones album and fucking rightly so). This is nowhere near, for example, the recent case of Suicide Silence. I honestly don't even think it's arguable that the majority of Deftones fans like Gore.

The difference between Gore and the rest of their discography is that a) there has been more negativity, and b) this negativity has been more aggressive. Because of the way the internet is, all it takes is for you to read a few people being aggressive towards it and suddenly it seems like the overall reception is one of disappointment, which it wasn't and isn't, by and large. At the other end, unlike Diamond Eyes and Koi No Yokan (as the recent examples), the praise Gore has received hasn't been as emphatic - I mean, how many people have you heard/read say that Gore is the best or even in the top three Deftones albums? That was the sort of praise some were giving DE and KNY. Even those who really like Gore (including me) aren't giving it that sort of praise. That means the negativity has more impact, because you're less likely to praise or even defend something vociferously if you 'merely' like it, rather than love it. If someone says White Pony's shit, I respond every time - I can't help myself. If someone says Gore's shit, I think they're talking bollocks but I'm not as bothered about defending it because I don't have anywhere near the attachment to it that I have with White Pony.

I reckon if you polled every genuine Deftones fan, I think you'd find that a majority enjoy it, a minority love it and a minority dislike/hate it.

These are basically my exact sentiments. Where DE and KNY got the initial love, I believe the love for those albums has fallen off a bit for most people. Gore is more of a grower, with (in my opinion) far more staying power than either of those two releases.

The critical reviews for Gore do seem to be much greater than that of DE, but KNY got the best critical reception of any Deftones release.
(http://www.metacritic.com/person/deftones?filter-options=music&sort_options=metascore&num_items=30)

In the end, I think the problem comes from people judging their albums from a comparative standpoint. I mean, how could you not? It's hard to judge a new album's strength without first looking back on their biggest classics like ATF, WP, and ST. This isn't at all unique to Deftones, it happens with every band.

But what is unique for Deftones, is that each album really stands on its own. When judged on an individual basis, I think most people can agree Gore is a good album. Maybe not "great," but certainly good. It's just hard to separate the new work from the past.

[BewareTheWater]

But what is unique for Deftones, is that each album really stands on its own. When judged on an individual basis, I think most people can agree Gore is a good album. Maybe not "great," but certainly good. It's just hard to separate the new work from the past.

This.

[Bifrost]

Good feedback guys - thanks!